Two Questions about missing info.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Firstly, was there a particular reason the Kaguya Clan is missing the Flower version of their Dance of the Clematis? I didn't see it on any forbidden list.

Secondly. I was considering developing a jutsu for my new character that would develop into a clan-only secret jutsu, or kekkei genkai, whichever fits more when I go to finalize it. Is it possible to develop into these AFTER character creation?

EDIT: Thirdly. A question about Special Characteristics. The tiered physical SC's in specific. Does having the prerequisite, then training for the next tier SC of the same type override the slot for the prereq SC, or take another entirely?

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

I would guess the first part would be from Kimimaro being in stage 2 cursed mark, which are banned here, so that could be a reason.

2nd, Honestly don't know to be honest with you. I don't know why it wouldn't work, but you're going to have to make the said clan, kkg on here to get it approved.

3rd, they just go over the previous tier. They don't stack in any form what so ever, but You get Tier 1 at C rank, and then change it to Tier 2 at B..Etc, etc.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

#1. Not a mod, can't answer that without jumping to conclusions. Cross' argument makes sense though.

#2. Not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you mean that you want to join a clan after the creation of your character? If so, then you're free to do that, as long as you're not part of another clan. If you mean "Can I create clan-based jutsu independent of the ones set in the encyclopedia", then again, yes, you can do that, provided it's approved by the staff and deemed acceptable. If neither of these answer your question, then you're going to have to provide an example or make more clear what exactly you mean.

#3. If something has a prerequisite, it overwrites that prerequisite and replaces it, unless it says otherwise. For example: If you had C-rank Strength and trained for B-rank Strength, your C-rank Strength would be removed from your app and the B-rank Strength would take its place. The abilities also don't 'stack', like Ninjutsu Mastery doesn't give you 60% chakra reduction (20% from Prodigy, 40% from Mastery), it only gives you the 40% that Ninjutsu Mastery provides. The only exception to this appears to be Hand-based SC's, such as One-Handed Seals and Blurred Hand Movement, which do in fact stack AND overwrite one another. i.e. You adopt Blurred Hand Movement after having One-Handed Seals. One-Handed Seals is removed from your app and replaced with Blurred Hand Movement, HOWEVER, it is implied that you can still use One-Handed Seals even though it's not on your app anymore. This may be reworded for clarification in the future, as I hear a member of the staff is currently fixing the issues with Special Characteristics.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Thanks. That all pretty much answered my confusion for the second and third questions.

As for the first though. The Vine form was clearly a 2nd form Curse Mark Jutsu too, as Kimimaro used it at the same time as Flower when it appeared in the anime. So, that's still quite confusing. I assumed Curse Marks weren't allowed, but it makes no sense for one part of the Clematis dance to be allowed and not the other.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

You make a good point with the spine jutsu however.
I'm not mod, but I didn't really notice it.

The vine seems more allowable without a curse mark and justifiable rather than the big 'spear' type weapon that he had, in my opinion at least.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Understood, I just felt like continuing the discussion, mod or not. This is by no means an attempt at an argument. Smile

The realism of bone manipulation can be brought into light for the Vine form too, as regrowing bones along the appendages is definitely easier than regrowing an entire spine, which the Curse Mark would make easier in the anime. Kimimaro didn't pull all the bones in his arm out to create the drill, merely grew them around his arm. That's surely have very negative effects if broken, as shown in the anime. An entire missing spine would be much more difficult to replace, spinal column and all.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

It did increase his speed of regrowing bones, like you said.

You're bringing a lot of good points lol.
I'm sure there could be a less powerful form of it, instead of the actual 'drill'. Say a C rank form of it are 2 large bones twisting at the middle forearm or wrist. The kaguya kkg, even though it was in the anime/manga, still doesn't really explain if they can regrow bones just as quickly as Kimimaro without the curse mark. It does say that they can manipulate their own skeletal structure; with the kkg being rare as mess as well.

"The main capabilities of Shikotsumyaku is allowing the user to manipulate the speed of their bones' growth as well as the location of calcium deposits. This allows them to create weapons of bones that can either protrude from any part of the body, or pulled out and used like hand held weapons. The user was also able to create armour of dense bone underneath their skin.[5] Immediately after the bone is pulled out, the broken skin heals.[6] Although it seems it takes a bit longer for the limb to become usable again or unless the user regrows the bones consciously.[7] They can even fire pieces of their bones as long-ranged projectiles. Any bone that they remove from the body immediately regenerates, as does the skin that is damaged when the bones are removed. Users can increase the density of the created bones, making them stronger than steel. This not only makes the created weapons very powerful, but also makes their bodies virtually indestructible; the bones can withstand even a chakra-infused blade, which is usually enough to cut through anything.[8] The bones structure can also be hollowed out completely as shown by the copy of Kimimaro which Kabuto had create a makeshift flute during his battle with the Uchiha brothers.[9]"

Technically, limbs are supposed to be unusable for a few moments until the bones regenerate; which doesn't happen here.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

I agree with all of your points, actually. And I did do my research on the Kaguya Kekkei Genkai, being a rather avid fan who is still disappointed they didn't expand upon it more.

I believe in the risk-reward system of the KKG, as nothing happens without a price. I'll use an illustration here as an example of your idea to create a less-powerful version. If we take into account this from the manga, which is supposed to be part of the Dance of the Willow, we can already see he has the capacity for high bone growth at Curse Mark level 1, before the body-changing effects of the second level. What I propose instead is a bigger risk-reward system for using these abilities, instead of weakening abilities that should be impossible at a normal level with no risk. Otherwise we're also looking at other jutsu being removed in the process.

For instance, the Vine portion of the Clematis dance wouldn't work. If removing a bone from the arm removes use of that arm for minutes while the bone regrows, what do you think is going to happen when you pull your spine out? As seen here, the hole made by the move doesn't regenerate as fast even in Curse Mark level 2, so think of the damage done to a normal Kaguya.

Another example is Seedling Fern, which sounds dangerous to even the most stout Kaguya without the power-up the Curse Mark gives. A forest of bones? And you essentially take a bone-version of Suigetsu's technique? Where are your organs in that forest if not turned completely to bone with the jutsu?

I'm not trying to start an argument, as I said above, merely pointing the facts. In light of the examples above, does growing and bending the bones of the arm into a drill shape seem far'fetched? Long story short, I propose either rethinking what is allowed for this KKG alongside some sort of negative effects to make the power given by the techniques worthwhile, or we begin removing the more impossible feats of bone manipulation along with Clematis Dance: Flower. lol

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

With those points, it doesn't seem as far'fetched as I thought any more. I mean, yeah it would be a high-rank move, but you brought up wonderful points! Respect! I don't see this as an argument by the way, Kaguya has already been a bit OP here lol. They technically gain the weaponry spec without even having it as a speciality (IE: Their jutsu having 'blades' and such)

It is a very, very powerful kkg, which listed can make the body of a wise Kaguya indesctructible if used right. 'the perfect defense' as they call it.

As for the forest of bones, I didn't really understand the whole point of it with the 'teleportation' aspect. It seemed more far fetched than the actual drill. Do you mind sharing the negative effects you want to see, or would reccomend seeing so that staff could see this? Kaguya have always needed a bit of a clean up, even though some people are going to have redo their apps.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

I'd be happy to share some insight, now that I know the concept is favorable! ^^

The basic idea of bone manipulation in itself is powerful. Hidden weapons constantly at the user's whim. You can't readily say that you detect weapons on a Kaguya normally. They could walk naked into a guarded facility and, without knowledge of their bloodline limit you'd be taken by complete surprise. I think the point of Kimimaro's illness in the canon was because otherwise there would be no stopping him. He's essentially an unstoppable force AND an immovable wall when he wants to be, despite what the theme of the fight with Gaara might have been. He only dies because of an illness.

If you want to both balance the clan's potential power and allow them to flourish with pre-established jutsu, you'd need to set in the description of their KKG, or the jutsu themselves, the potential loss or damage it causes to the body to perform the higher moves. Their ability is bone manipulation, so just because the skin graphs itself back together doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Any Marvel movie fan can easily consider the pain of having something as solid as bone, or god forbid metal, pushing through muscle and skin, parting bones to do so.

So let's take a simple example into account first. Dance of the Camellia. It uses the shoulder portion to grow and extract a piece of bone. Seeing as this seems the most common application, it seems safe to assume it's easy to do once learned. It's also a low-ranked ability, meaning less chakra was spent to do it. Now, considering the bone sword made was created at the same time the bone being taken was repairing itself, we can assume Kimimaro took his time making the sword for the purpose of not losing complete control of that arm for any length of time. Thus, the first point of cost should be a time factor. If you're being charged at, obviously you couldn't pop a bone sword out of your shoulder and go to swinging, and expect to be completely unharmed.

Second example. Dance of the Larch. It's obviously quicker, producing spines and spikes out of the body as an offense/defense system. Ribs, shoulders, arms, legs.. The bones aren't separated from the body, merely from as bone spurs basically from pre-existing bone. They can also be pulled back, as shown in the anime. So there is no regrowth time, because you aren't affecting the bones already there, simply adding to them. It's a C rank technique on here, which makes sense. You're using more chakra to affect more than one bone. But you're using less per bone because you aren't growing an entirely new bone from the affected area, simple growing onto pre-existing.

Third, let's stay withing this site's list. The Vine portion of Dance of the Clematis. Clearly, it's WAY lower rank right now than it should be considering all of these factors. You're dealing with not only a large bone in terms of length, but you're having to regrow and ENTIRE spine. Spinal cord, backbone, and all. The spine is connected to the head, ribs, hips, etc, so that means you're having to dislocate these, take the time to both pull your spine safely out of your body AND manipulate it into the death-dealing whip you desire, and then worry about regrowing an entire spine, then reconnecting bones where they should be. Now, obviously, a clan used to techniques like this don't have to "think" about all of this when executing the move, but it still happens. Ignoring the effects on the nervous system by pulling out the spinal cord, let's assume that with a large enough chakra input and focus, say an A-rank amount, you could both dislocate and pull your spine out, molding jagged backbone into cutting edges in the process of removing the several feet of bone. If you did it as quick as Curse Mark level 2 Kimimaro did, you'd fall on the ground, no matter how many elephantine bone spurs are sticking from your back.

So say it took an entire post to ready the bones and perform the technique, then you spent the next turn weakened because you're growing a new CNS pathway. Say the technique was upgradable to S-rank later after training to remove the turn you're spent weakened, able to react to your opponent quicker for a higher cost. For the power of a weapon with both cutting and binding properties, that's not a bad price.

Then you could develop beyond that. Say, you had a passive technique you use at the beginning of battle that begins to form secondary bones along critical areas. Say it halves the time required to perform your techniques. Then your high powered moves can be executed and used in the same post. You pay, say, anywhere between C-A rank of chakra to make the next two techniques used at or below your rank take half the time. Does that make sense? It's not about balancing the power of the KKG itself, but making the realistic effects known. An S-Rank ninja who's spent years doing this to his bones will be more adjusted to it than a genin with bones popping out of his skin.

That's the basic idea. If that's not enough, you could add an element of sacrifice to your technique. If you wanted that spine-pulling technique to take only half a turn without training, you'd probably increase the chakra put into the move, then suffer pain and blood loss as you ripped a sharp whip out of your body. Any time you mess with a body as fragile as a human's, you have to represent the consequences.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

All of this.
Every single thing I agree with.

I always wanted to say like you stated 'Shouldn't there be some amount of pain and drawback to having such a powerful thing?" and you just pretty much made it a lot better than what it was! I really hope staff looks at this and tries to fix the Kaguya a bit more based off the little logic/system you have going on here.

People tend to forget that even though they can manipulate bone, they still bleed from having their skin ripped open, sure it heals, but there are still some blood loss there, even if it's minimal. I'm sure a medical Kaguya could easily fix all these things when they are higher ranked to at least A, but genin would be new to this -especially- if it's supposed to be a rare Kkg!

I like the amount of thought and realism you brought up in this thread, really insightful!
Staff need to get on thiiiiisss

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Thank you! I tend to gravitate towards things that make sense. And this does, clearly. When you fight against something that can do what it wants with no drawback, it's unrewarding, even if you win. It should be a contest of writing skill, not a show of "who found the best loopholes". Here's hoping this entices some lovely changes. I even volunteer to write the changes if staff approves of my methods. Only for current, canon abilities and such, obviously.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

I'm sure the ~~semi-lazy~~ Staff would enjoy that! TEEHEE

Go ahead and share a few examples of the pre-made kaguya techniques and see if they agree with it!

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Can do! Here's a semi-revised list, including the Flower version of the Clematis Dance. Staff please keep in mind that these are only suggestions.

Name: Tsubaki no Mai | Dance of the Camellia
Rank: D
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m ~ 5m)
Element: -
Description: Tsubaki no Mai is a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. The user performs this jutsu by modifying the humerus (upper arm bone) of either their right or left arm to create a short, hilt-less bone sword. Since they can increase and compress the density of their bones, they can make the sword harder than steel. The user then uses the sword to fight; their style uses quick cuts and thrusts to disable opponents quickly. They is extremely proficient with this sword and can, not only deflect shuriken, but also dispatch a large number of Shadow Clones with this technique.
Chakra Cost: 4CP

Name: Karamatsu no Mai | Dance of the Larch
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m ~ 5m)
Element: -
Description: Karamatsu no Mai is a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. The user uses this jutsu to create a mass of razor-sharp bone spikes all over their body. These spines appear to be branches off their pre-existing skeletal structure rather than completely new bones. The user is even able to grow these bones at an extremely rapid rate so they can stab an opponent even as they are growing. They can even use them to block or trap an opponent's strikes. In addition to being an unwelcome surprise for opponents, it makes them basically untouchable at close range. If an opponent would start to get close to them, they would start to spin rapidly slashing the foe in multiple areas of their body.
Chakra Cost: 6CP (Additional 2CP Per Post)

Name: Teshi Sendan | Drilling Finger Bullets
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m), Far (10+)
Element: -
Description: Teshi Sendani is a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. Hardened bones from the fingertips are shot at the enemy, with a spinning motion added to the skeletal bullets. A direct hit will excavate skin, flesh, and bone. Since the bones regenerate after release, this technique can be used in succession.
Chakra Cost: 5CP per 5 fingers.

Name: Yanagi no Mai | Dance of the Willow
Rank: B
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m ~ 5m)
Element: -
Description: Yanagi no Mai is a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. To perform this dance, the user grows several long bone blades from their body for use as weapons. Though they primarily uses two blades grown from the palms of their hands, they also uses several secondary bones grown from his elbows, knees, and shoulders. This dance form is incredibly acrobatic, using spins, charges, and long sweeping slashes to make the strikes more effective and to evade opponents' counter strikes. The user can also extend their bones to attack his opponents without having to adjust their own movement.
Chakra Cost: 10CP (Additional 3CP Per Post)

Name: Tessenka no Mai: Hana | Dance of the Clematis: Flower
Rank: A
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m ~ 5m)
Element: -
Description: Tessenka no Mai: Hana is one half of a technique used by the members of the Kaguya tribe. The user can cause the bones in one or both arms to grow through as long spikes along the forearm, which begin to curve and spiral until they grow into a solid form. The bones overtake the arm up to above the elbow, using a spur grown through the palm as the point of a large drill. The bone then hardens until the drill can be used as a weapon. The technique also allowed the user to pierce enemies or objects, for the drill is strong enough to break through almost any object or jutsu of A-rank or below if given enough force, and can only be broken by techniques of A rank or higher.
Chakra Cost: 20 CP per arm, 5 CP per arm per turn after the first.

Name: Tessenka no Mai: Tsuru | Dance of the Clematis: Vine
Rank: A - S
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m)
Element: -
Description: Tessenka no Mai: Tsuru is one half of a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. The user can modify and pull out their own spinal column to use as a flexible chain staff, regrowing a new spine to replace the removed one. The protrusions on the vertebrae are modified to make them stronger and sharper, and the weapon is capable of extending quite a ways to snare or slice its target. The extraction and modification takes considerably longer due to the spine being an important part of the body, and more difficult to regrow. At A Rank, execution of this move consumes an entire post, making them unable to attack that post, and the user will be weakened during the next post while their body regrows their spine. At S-Rank, the body removes and regrows the spine at the same time, meaning the user no longer becomes weakened in the next post.
Chakra Cost:

A-Rank: 22 CP, No attack during the post this technique is executed, and user becomes physically weaker the next post.
S-Rank: 35 CP, no weakening stage after execution.

Name: Sawarabi no Mai | Dance of the Seedling Fern
Rank: S
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m), Far (10+)
Element: -
Description: Sawarabi no Mai is a technique used by the members of the Kaguya clan. The user conencts with the ground and causes a giant forest of bone spikes to burst from the earth. Alone, this attack is quite devastating, but if continual chakra is spent. the user is able to emerge from any bone at will, giving them a deadly element of surprise should the opponent be able to avoid the attack.
Chakra Cost: 37CP, 10 CP per turn after.

I'm not the best with descriptions, especially when trying to make them sound useful, but there you go. Most of the first didn't require changing because they're pretty solid.

As a bonus, here's the technique I teased in my earlier post.

Name: Shitai-kotsu saisei | Corpse Bone Regeneration
Rank: B - A
Type: Weaponry - Taijutsu
Range: -
Element: -
Description: Shitai-kotsu saisei is a special passive technique utilized only by members of the Kaguya clan. In preparation for a long battle, the user can send chakra through his bones to begin the regeneration process ahead of time. This builds up layers of bone across their skeleton helps to speed up their bone manipulation techniques.
Chakra Cost:

B-Rank: 11 CP, The next 2 bone-related jutsu used has their execution time halved.
A-Rank: 21 CP, The next 3 bone-related jutsu used has their execution time halved.

NOTE: I left training times for upgrading the skills out intentionally. I'm not as well versed in this site's training yet.

Age : 35 Posts : 10

Bump for victory.

Still waiting to see the interest levels here. lol

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Can this be solved?