Conflict and Character Investment Insight

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Proposition and Concept:

After several discussions with a few staff members and no small degree of observation on my own part simply from observing the site itself and skimming over skype discussions, a number of the staff [and most likely general members included] that there is a disturbing lack of conflict on a forum that is based in a setting in which conflict is well... nearly the entire premise. Although there is nothing wrong with social interaction between RPers which is what the bulk of roleplays on US seem to come down to, to be in this setting without encouraging or focusing on some degree of PVP combat seems to be a rather ill advised idea.

Now don't get me wrong, one of the only reasons I still role-play in this setting is because of the sheer amount of diverse plot concepts one can create. Not only does this setting allot for a combat based plots, but it also allows for Game of Thrones-esque political intrigue plots, to romance, I imagine even horror could be incorporated in some fashion. For a setting that is seemingly basic and at time ill-explained in the concepts it provides, the universe itself allows for a very genre diverse role-playing experience. That being said, a story or role play without conflict is scarcely a story at all and in a setting where we create and build characters who act as soldiers within a military, the obvious route for conflict is Combat.

I know that this is an issue that has been addressed in small increments a number of times, especially recently, but having been prompted by both staff and members, I will not only write this post but respond and elaborate upon points brought up by Drizzy [formerly and better known as Izayah] in post he made within the staff lounge regarding the same issues and hope for some form of peaceful and reasonable member input.

When discussing combat in this setting, there are two categories which of course need to be addressed, because they each serve a different purpose in resolving or creating plots or combat. They are much like in any Online Game or MMO setting, Player v. Environment and Player v. Player. Now to aleviate any misunderstandings I will define the terms in the context of this setting and RP below as follows:

Player Versus Environment: In the terms of this RP Player Versus Environment [PVE] is the most common form of conflict found on this site. It refers to any combat that is not dictated by one player against another, be it fighting bandits on a mission or kicking a dog in a social thread. Because they do not involve another members character they are in a sense, far less regulated and controlled than in combat with another role player because the outcome is far less severe. That being said, a lack of 'realism' in these threads is often penalized during the evaluation process.

Player Versus Player: In alternative to PVE and sort of pretty simply defined by considering its name PVP is any form of combat that is indicitive of one role-player vs another. For the sake of simplicity this also includes combat in which an NPC is being controlled by another member. This form of combat is monitored and far more strictly regulated for the sake of fairness.

With that being said, each form of player interactive conflict has it's own advantages in terms of creating further conflict and/or plots which in some sense double as their disadvantages.

PVE is a far more personally controlled and safer environment. For the most part the actions and interactions within this this type of conflict are controlled only through the dictation of everyone within the thread working towards some form of common goal. Any form of injury to characters is controlled entirely by them and their own plans. Because of the lack of outside interest in this type of conflict it breeds a far safer atmosphere.

Now obviously PVP is on the alternate end of the spectrum. Regardless of any previous agreements if a thread becomes PVP, either because one member attacks another, or their thread has been invaded by a character with ill intentions, all PVP threads can be lethal and they are not always controlled by whatever outcome a singular role player in the thread might desire. For example, if I were to enter into a thread with Adam and Darius, although Darius might not wish his character to die or be injured, Adam and I could opt to create a PVP environment and promptly injure or kill him depending on what actions we took In-Character.

With the obvious having been stated, PVP creates a new breed of conflict/plot simply because it takes some of the decision making away from one role-player and forces them to, at the very least, react to some set of outside circumstance. This in turn creates a degree of newly created conflict or plot that we would not see otherwise.

Now naturally any proper role play is a mix between the two above mentioned of conflicts. A setting with entirely PVP, would likely end up as, to put it simply, a fleshy organ measuring contest in which those who are not as adept in combat will simply be picked on for the sake of an easy win. In alternative a setting with entirely PVE is rather docile and frankly uneventful on a global scale.

In tandem we come to the discussion of plot creation, which seems to be a large problem on US. In discussion with Izayah the following was said, which having been a part of these previous sites I see no reason not to agree with.

Izayah wrote:

Combat is apart of a healthy site, but not the focus. The combat on the previous sites that I've been on always played a direct role into the 'plot' of the site. It was an awesome system because the entire site had to read and role-play to have an influence on the 'site-wide plot' and anything anyone did IC affected the outcome, making activity fun and a must have. Plus these plots were never manufactured by the staff for the most part. They happened naturally because people were interested in ways that they could make their character become apart of a bigger story. Also, the majority of conflict didn't even involve massive death, as it was easy to just attack NPCS in a village and create some type of conflict that way. Death actually only came at the every end of these plots for the most part, or during the middle, and only one or two people actually died.

Never before, on any of the dozens of sites that I have role played on in the past have such a vast number of members been so reliant on the staff to create some form of plot. One or two larger scale events maybe, but not a larger scale plot as I have seen any number of people ask for in various forum assistance topics, the first one that springs to mind is Cross' thread about a Nukenin plot but I know there have been others. To put it more bluntly, it surprises me that so many members expect a plot to be spoon fed to them by staff rather than going out and creating one of their own. Granted, I will agree an occasional staff orchestrated event is not a bad thing, but I had thought that the majority of any RP site was designed for the story to be member driven.

Now, no small degree of that does tie into some form of global immersion, in that I don't expect everyone to read every topic and I've been meaning to find a place for some form of widget which can serve as a weekly notifier towards important events or plots occurring within the water country, but finding time or a place to fit into the present lackluster layout is rather difficult. Such a widget would not only help with continuity but also with encouraging others to take place in plots.

I mostly wanted to drop that in here for consideration, moving on.

That being said, it's obviously noted that a large majority of US almost actively avoids any form of serious [Note serious refers to combat or conflict in which there is an actual risk to your character or in which the combat is scarcely above the level of a 'friendly' spar.] combat. Nearest that I can figure is that there are three simple reasons for this.

The first, to put it simply is investment of effort and time. Not counting the general application process which at times can be lengthy in itself some have already put a hefty amount of effort into their character. If you factor in SC training, which at S -rank by my calculation equates to about the length of a short novella and the invested time it takes to rank up. It gets ridiculous.

The second, I can only assume is lack of ignorance on fighting mechanics. Now to clarify, I use the term ignorance not as an insult but to express the lack of knowledge on how things should work here as opposed to previous sites. Without knowing or feeling comfortable in a PVP combat situation it can often lead to an excess amount of stress and create a loss of muse.

The third is something that's already been addressed to some degree, but I'll reiterate to some degree. As you create your character in any RP setting, you have your own image on some level, of how you want your character to grow and progress and further not a lot of people react fondly when the course of that image is changed and thus they tend to avoid 'serious' combat situations.

Response Prompts:

With everything have been clarified within the amount of time that I have and in an effort to keep the thread on track, I have devised a series of Response Prompts for those who desire to respond in effort to facilitate a clear and concise discussion. Please only respond to the initial points I present or bring points relevant to my posts in the thread and if possible avoid responding to each other. Mind you that many of these questions or concepts establish will likely coalesce with a system in the concept form that I have been working on over the past few months and might soon see its own Forum Assistance topic in the near future.

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?

To elaborate, such a system would likely contain three levels all of which contain their own gains and limitations based on a high risk, high reward architecture. For lack of a more apt term, I will simply call the three tiers Newbie, Adept and Advanced. With the Advanced Tier being always able to die, but also gains the highest rewards, Newbie being unable to have their character killed or disfigured without their consent, but also suffer the biggest limitations, and Adept falling in the middle. Essentially this would act as a handicap system you sometimes see in fighting games.

Please do not request information on the rewards or limitations of each tier given that such and idea is only in the discussion phase.

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?

Simply put such a system would allow you to role-play first second and third and grow your character in a manner you desire without having to worry about heavy limitations or things that you might -have- to train before role-playing. After all role-playing, contrary to popular belief is more like playing a game than it is writing. Writing is just the method it's played by. Whilst some find more enjoyment in the writing aspect there is still some level of game mechanics to its functionality.

3. Should a better combat system be established clearly detailing the mechanics of combat and how such things should flow?

The system would dictate the ins and outs of combat, how it does flow, how it should flow, what is possible and what is not; existing to serve as a guideline for all members. Such a system, whilst not heavy on limitations and allowing for free writing or better said, free combat, would even the playing field between those who are unsure in how combat works and those who are certain.

Well, I believe that is it and as such I hope to have a good amount of productive input from which to make an informed decision.

Posts : 358

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?

No, not in the slightest. I've been at places with these kinds of systems in place and what ultimately ends up happening is people abuse them. Hypothetically, let's say I'm down to be murdered at the drop of a hat, but Drizzy isn't -- he's the other end of the spectrum. It's infuriating having to acknowledge people like Drizzy exist and treat them like actual characters. In my experience, these types of systems get used as a crutch by bad writers to force themselves into plot threads. If I'm writing something where I kidnap a character, or I'm in the midst of battle, and Drizzy walks in I . . . can do basically nothing. Quite literally nothing. He can literally show up, have his character insult my guy, slap me in the face, and all I can do is engage in a verbal spar because some invisible rules are stopping me from gutting him like a fish. It's stupid, and it leads to unrealistic and idiotic interactions between people.

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?

I like the writing requirements because it adds an actual element of roleplay to the thing. I'm actually working on things for Koga, I have things in mind for him that I'm working toward -- character goals, beyond arbitrary plotlines that I think up.

But it's a double-edged sword. I'm more hesitant to engage in combat because the site has basically established power levels for different characters. You don't have to be a very good writer, but if you've been here longer than I have, you can literally spam 'WELL I HAVE ADVANCED SPEED AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SPEED BUFFS SO I'M FASTER THAN YOU SO NOW I'M GOING TO DO THREE SOMERSAULTS AND STAB YOU IN THE FACE' over and over again. I actually purposefully declined a challenge from another player here because they didn't strike me as a good writer, but they had the enhanced speed and strength buff, so I foresaw the entire fight boiling down to him saying he could just breeze past my puppets. I can deal with this at a certain level with certain tools and instruments I take, but as a Genin I'm a little gimped to Chuunin+ characters who have more jutsus, more powerful jutsus, and are also physically superior to my guy according to the site.

So, I want to walk around murdering faces off. I'm excited to do it, but at the same time, I'm not in a rush. Me, personally? I'm waiting until Chuunin to really start diving into PvP stuff, because until I can hit Chuunin, I feel a little gimped. If you take all the training requirements away, I think you're going to lose a lot of good writing that is built around earning the rights for their characters. I'd also like to emphasize the word 'earn', there -- I thoroughly enjoy the fact that you can't just roll up and be like "Yo, I'm Minato-level fast, just because I say I am" and actually have to put in a little bit of effort to get there. I like the training requirements and I think they should be there, but since they're broken down by rank, it can make it difficult to see a lot of healthy competition between people.

3. Should a better combat system be established clearly detailing the mechanics of combat and how such things should flow?

No. You either suck at TBL or you don't, and if you suck at it, you need to go out and get better. If you honestly think it's acceptable to perform eight actions a post or throw up doj every other post, then you deserve to be openly ridiculed until you fix yourself.

The last point I'd like to address . . .

There's not a whole of incentive for PvP. I think that's the biggest problem you face. There's EXP incentives, but frankly, I can earn EXP by just writing with myself -- and there's no risk to my character. If you want more conflict to be generated, there need to be rewards for killing players. For example, you mentioned how you have to write small novellas for SCs at a certain point? What if when I killed a character I could take EXP, or an SC? What if I could get a jutsu?

It's more than just dangling rewards, though. You need in-character reasons to fight. There should be PvP-oriented missions that have greater rewards associated with them, missions that will rank you up faster and give you better stuff when you complete them. There should be probing missions where you have to sneak into the Land of Fire and probe Konohagakure's defenses; then there's a Konoha-equivalent where you have to play defense against the opposing team. Missions should actually conflict with each other like they do in the show: remember the whole Zabuza arc? That started because Naruto & co. had an escort mission, and Zabuza got hired to murder the other team.

Missions like that should be competitive, they should inspire you to put together the best team you can so you have the best chance of winning. Not all of them should be straight up deathmatches -- maybe the loser of B-Rank and below missions get a chance at escape instead of auto-death. A+? Fight to the death. Maybe if you take your free escape on B-Rank, it can open up a 'pursuit' mission where the guys who just beat you into fleeing are now chasing you, and you either need to get away from them or you need to fight them again -- this gives you both a chance to avenge the loss that put you on the flight path to begin with, and it also gives you more to write about than just 'LAWLERSKATES GONNA STAB U SO HARD'. If I had the option to write Koga pinned down behind enemy lines, strafing from tree to tree while a bloodthirsty Ruka and her rabbit from hell chased me down? That would be fucking epic.

TL;DR: you have to incentivize conflict between players, and putting kiddie gloves on PvP isn't how you do that. You do that by rewarding players who engage in PvP with ranking up faster and allowing them to earn better tools/goodies.

Age : 93 Posts : 369

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?

I have two different outlooks when it comes to this question. One way, I do believe that characters should be separated, or at least it should be taken into consideration the situation at hand. For example, Yoru and Saint. Yoru was just casually fishing when he was attacked by Saint. Now I'm not sure if Yoru was interested in fighting somebody, but if someone randomly initiated battle out of nowhere ultimately killing your character, that would indeed suck, especially since you weren't looking for battle in the first place and probably just looking for a social topic.

Any who, I don't necessarily believe just because Yoru wasn't looking for a battle to the death should grant him invulnerability, but I do believe that if there is a great level gap, there should be one. Or at least, be presented to a mod for approval. I would hate to have an open topic and have a Jonin come in and kill me while I'm still a genin. Though, if it is consulted between the two participants that it will be a battle to the death and they both agree, then I guess it should be fair game, as well as escape topics since it is already presented in the rules that your character could be killed.

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?

Mmm, again I have two different views on this. I sort of like the idea of being able to purchase SC's and such but I feel like it would make it to easy to do overall, so I think it should remain the same. Though, writing for SC in later ranks could be a hassle and I think should have an added bonus such as some possible xp as if it were a social topic, or at least maybe some funds. I don't think that the current system prevents me from jumping into role-playing though. I practically started off a social after getting approved.
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Just like to mention that I do like Koga's idea of having missions from different villages intersect. It would be a good way to get all of the villages interacting with one another on a new level as well as cause conflicts between them. It also opens up the possibility to more pvp. Things like these should definitely be integrated into the system, and possibly other events. I know it was tried in the passed, but I would love to see a Chuunin Exams, even if the only thing rewarded is exp. I just think it would be a fun even that all members could be a part of and possibly lead to something bigger like in the show.

Posts : 358

Quote :: I have two different outlooks when it comes to this question. One way, I do believe that characters should be separated, or at least it should be taken into consideration the situation at hand. For example, Yoru and Saint. Yoru was just casually fishing when he was attacked by Saint. Now I'm not sure if Yoru was interested in fighting somebody, but if someone randomly initiated battle out of nowhere ultimately killing your character, that would indeed suck, especially since you weren't looking for battle in the first place and probably just looking for a social topic.

Any who, I don't necessarily believe just because Yoru wasn't looking for a battle to the death should grant him invulnerability, but I do believe that if there is a great level gap, there should be one. Or at least, be presented to a mod for approval. I would hate to have an open topic and have a Jonin come in and kill me while I'm still a genin. Though, if it is consulted between the two participants that it will be a battle to the death and they both agree, then I guess it should be fair game, as well as escape topics since it is already presented in the rules that your character could be killed

To my understanding, Yoru was looking for a fight, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make:

That's the perfect example of how that system is abused. Yoru can throw up a fishing thread in the Land of Fire. Literally crossing borders into a hostile land just to troll and fish is exactly why I don't think people should get protection. It makes shit stupid. There's a reason ninjas don't aimlessly wander into other countries: because villages are basically de facto mobs working for governments. You see those Gaiden arcs that show the whole Uchiha clan's downfall?

They show Kiri nin sneaking about the Land of Fire, and then suddenly Uchiha Shisui & co. show up and fucking slay them. Same thing happens at another point, except I think it's grass nin and Kakashi's ANBU team (with Itachi) are the ones that gut them. If you go wandering into other people's borders, bad things happen and you're forfeiting protection.

I really don't want to see a thread where Konoha nin walk into Kirigakure and start spray-painting the Mizukage's tower and all I'm allowed to do is yell at them. Fuck that. You either show up with diplomatic approval or you get kunai'd.

It's Naruto: it's a glorious land of ninja killing and chakra monsters. I don't want it to be a nice place. If you want friends, stay in your village or foster a long-lost-love relationship a la Madara and Hashirama. A part from that, stay out of my filthy lands unless you want a good ol' fashioned ninja shankin'.

Age : 93 Posts : 369

Koga wrote:

Quote :: I have two different outlooks when it comes to this question. One way, I do believe that characters should be separated, or at least it should be taken into consideration the situation at hand. For example, Yoru and Saint. Yoru was just casually fishing when he was attacked by Saint. Now I'm not sure if Yoru was interested in fighting somebody, but if someone randomly initiated battle out of nowhere ultimately killing your character, that would indeed suck, especially since you weren't looking for battle in the first place and probably just looking for a social topic.

Any who, I don't necessarily believe just because Yoru wasn't looking for a battle to the death should grant him invulnerability, but I do believe that if there is a great level gap, there should be one. Or at least, be presented to a mod for approval. I would hate to have an open topic and have a Jonin come in and kill me while I'm still a genin. Though, if it is consulted between the two participants that it will be a battle to the death and they both agree, then I guess it should be fair game, as well as escape topics since it is already presented in the rules that your character could be killed

To my understanding, Yoru was looking for a fight, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make:

That's the perfect example of how that system is abused. Yoru can throw up a fishing thread in the Land of Fire. Literally crossing borders into a hostile land just to troll and fish is exactly why I don't think people should get protection. It makes shit stupid. There's a reason ninjas don't aimlessly wander into other countries: because villages are basically de facto mobs working for governments. You see those Gaiden arcs that show the whole Uchiha clan's downfall?

They show Kiri nin sneaking about the Land of Fire, and then suddenly Uchiha Shisui & co. show up and fucking slay them. Same thing happens at another point, except I think it's grass nin and Kakashi's ANBU team (with Itachi) are the ones that gut them. If you go wandering into other people's borders, bad things happen and you're forfeiting protection.

I really don't want to see a thread where Konoha nin walk into Kirigakure and start spray-painting the Mizukage's tower and all I'm allowed to do is yell at them. Fuck that. You either show up with diplomatic approval or you get kunai'd.

It's Naruto: it's a glorious land of ninja killing and chakra monsters. I don't want it to be a nice place. If you want friends, stay in your village or foster a long-lost-love relationship a la Madara and Hashirama. A part from that, stay out of my filthy lands unless you want a good ol' fashioned ninja shankin'.

I get what you're saying but in regards to this site, people also do travel to get the chance to rp with other members who are not apart of their respective villages. And what if the situation was different and lets say Ninja A is in their homeland rping in an open topic and Ninja B, who is from another village joins this topic and starts up a fight. Keep in mind that Ninja B is a Jounin+ while Ninja A is just a genin, he can't do much to protect himself hence him dying.

You're right in the sense that if you go around sneaking into other peoples villages such as Cross and Seika did into Kumo, then there is the possibility of someone getting a kunai to the back, but there are also just cases of people visiting another village and entering in a legal sense.

I completely agree and think there should be more player interaction on the battle stand point, but there is the chance that some members on the site don't want to die for whatever reason. They just might like to rp in topics such as social threads and avoid conflicts with other characters. There could be cases that a member just doesn't feel like fighting and shouldn't be forced to just because someone entered their open topic wanting to initiate a battle. Now I get that you wouldn't have a choice in the "Naruto World" but this is a forum, not the Naruto World, and I think we should be looking to please as many members on the site as possible, that including those who aren't particularly here to engage in fights.

Age : 31 Posts : 787

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?

I think this would be fine, me and Ryuuza have discussed this several times. The biggest thing however, as was pointed out by Koga is this interfering with plot etc. That's easy enough as you just place limits on whether or not they die. A suggestion that Ryuuza had before was having basic guard nin that come in and save them at the brink of death from their village. This is a loose idea of course but just an example. As Koga stated with not being able to do anything if they even slap you in the face, I am certain that is not what is being suggested. I believe it has more to do with your chance for dying (non existent, based on dice roll, or imminent), correlating with how far up the totem pole you are allowed to climb in rank. Id also like to point out that if such a system was put in place, in no way should it be an excuse to give several people higher up characters right out of the gate. I know that dice seem a little out there but they could be coupled with another mechanic to make it work. As Trey said, at the end of the day this is a game. I am one of those that prefers the writing portion of it and I use it mainly as I tool for improving my writing. Im going to address mine and Yoru's topic, not just because it was brought up but because it holds a vital key to this question. First a personal caveat that I did give Yoru an out to end the fight and he did not take it. That aside, you have to look at the reason for things happen. This is a simulation of several characters interacting, and you have to stick to your character. No as pointed out before we are in an environment of military altruism. These are literally police states we are dealing with here. When you have a guy like my guy, who hates anyone outside of his village, sees another ninja proudly sporting his colors, well conflict is inevitable. Draw a real world paralell here, you don't know what the culture is like in other parts of the world. If I travel to a different place, I have no idea what could cause someone to flip out and attack me. This holds true on an rp board as well because we are still dealing with people, people who live in a world propelled by war and conflict. These are risks that you should accept, based simply on an objective outlook of causation and effect, as very real anytime you travel somewhere or encounter someone you do not know.

Reverse the role, say that I was in Konoha and I saw Yoru fishing, and I attacked him. I would be accepting a variety of consequences. I would probably face the prison system that has been put in to place. I surely would be sought out for death specifically by Konoha shinobi, and it could potentially start a war between two nations. Both are actually very likely in either circumstance but much more likely in the theortical one vs the one that is currently in place due primarily to location which increases the difficulty of being found out. Great stories are great because they are believable. This hinges on characters and the interactions they have. It doesn't matter what genre. It could be a fantasy about dragons and magic but you can get sucked in and for a while believe it to be all encompassing, almost like your mind gets transported to this imaginary realm because the writer created such realistic people and interactions between them based on their own characteristics and circumstances. A system like the above, if it was well thought out and not TOO limiting in the way of story progression, would allow for fluid interactions with out those who did not wanting to take the risks being forced to. It would just have to be very well thought out and just as efficiently implemented.

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?

NO. And I say this with tongue in cheek. Let me ask my own question. Do we see every character learn every technique they know in the show? No. Why is that? Because it's bloody boring that's why. It gets tedious having to bear witness to or flesh out yourself every single bit of progression for your character. Personal development I am excluding here because that is it's own can of worms. I think it should be a choice. Either or instead of one or the other. Reversely I think it would be a good idea to allow people to earn jutsu through training vs using points. However I dont think those should be evaluated at all or maybe if they would be, out of like 5 points vs the 10 or 20 for other topics. Ive seen either system work well on different sites. Successful ones at that. Im pretty sure everything on NWOTN (no clue if thats still around or not) was completely point based. Personally I didn't like it that much. It seemed awfully restricting but it did promote more writing actually because you needed more points. Of course I know you're saying "well arent they writing right now in the current system for these things anyway?" Well yes but those writings are now instead geared towards more character development. I think allowing a free reign choice for ALL things allows more freedom for people to tackle their progression as they see fit.As a side note, Id say that points are very important as they give you a reward for your hard work and encourage better writing. I think it is the second best rating - reward system Ive ever seen on an RP site. There is no reason we shouldn't allow it to be used at full capacity for its capabilities.

3. Should a better combat system be established clearly detailing the mechanics of combat and how such things should flow?

I would like to say that simple logic should be able to be applied to figure this out but I have been proven time and time again that this is wrong. The basis is here is that people see things far to differently for there NOT to be a need for a system. Otherwise we have to call in the mods once a disagreement occurs and this causes resntment more often than not for the person who does not come out on top in the situation due to their ruling. Once again I reference NWOTN, who had an action point system to dictate what all could be done in a single post. Ill admit it was a bit infuriating, but it does solve the problem of "well that just wasnt possible and you didnt have enough time." This kind of system puts everyone on the same page. Again I note that this needs to be CAREFULLY considered and looked over a dozen times before it should be implemented but I think its a good thing to strive for.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Overall

Personally, I feel like a lot of time is going to be invested into something we really don't need. As a site, the only fighting that has been going on has either been one person stabbing another in the back in Kirigakure, which seems to become more or less what the village is about, the other being the kind of fighting happening through the plot made up by two writers to further their own personal plot. I think we should keep the system that has been in place before all of this, basically where Moderators look into the death case and check whether it is legitimate and not just something made up so one person can kill the other for OOC reasons and rule someone dead or not. While it is not that different from this whole thing, I do not believe things should be in Tiers as everyone should be treated equally. If we can stick to that and just don't go too far into it, we can do with just the following.

1: Is the hit legit?
Look into the background in order to see if the reasons for just killing a person are legitimate or not. If so, the character dies, if not, the character lives.

While it could use some polishing, I personally think that is what we need to stick to instead of focusing all this time on polishing a completely new system when, as certain people in this room said, there are plenty of other things that need to be looked into before we start working on new things.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

Okay so I guess the whole point of why this topic is made is because US wants to see where it stands combat-wise and maybe reinvent itself as a combat oriented site which it never really was. It is not a necessarily bad thing or a good thing, it’s just a thing. A thing that’d require tons of effort and hours spent revising something that most people don’t really feel like doing anyways (I’m not pulling stuff out of my buttocks, that was implied in both Trey’s and some of the other people’s posts). So basically we’d be halting the process of revamping Summonings, Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Touta and many other things only to reinvent combat which most people hate in the first place? Hardly sounds like a smart idea to reorient the whole basis of a site especially when it is not going through its best of times. Maybe making it more combat oriented is the right thing, maybe it is not but as an ex-mod of a solely combat oriented Naruto site I can only tell you to prepare for an influx of new people and then seeing those same people leave after they get salty after their characters get killed.

Also what reinventing the site would achieve is widening the divide between the site and the members of this site who do not enjoy combat, I am not sure of who exactly these members are but they are always there. Some people just don’t want to see the world burn and that should be treated as normal, they should always have a place to stay. I’ve heard an interesting idea in Trey’s post, something that came from the Staff speaking in their Skype room or whatever. Something about conflict and combat driving the site and making the place more interesting (not the exact words but it meant something like that). I do not really think that is true, there is plenty or enjoyment to be had in nothing combat related in fact some of my recently picked up anime like Akame ga Kill keep me hooked on promises and build up alone. It’s just something that depends on the people writing, sure you can risk and reinvent the site, make it into a combat haven and lose some people in the process and then see those combat maniacs who were supposedly “driving the site” writing just as blandly about their conflict and combat. My point is when combat is all you do ultimately it becomes just as bland, all this dull mass of writing on US only makes us appreciate it more when something actually DOES happen, it makes those moments much more hype and unique.

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?

No. Just make sure you properly evaluate death. The way I see it the way site’s storyline (built by writers) works is similar to how a writer writes a story – if there’s no point, no rhyme or reason to kill a character or the reason is shit and something Mr. Writer comes up spontaneously (ZOFMG your hair is purple, you must die!!!!) the chances are that the viewers of such a show or readers of such a story would burn the book and rant about it online. Just make character’s death mean something and matter, don’t just go along approving deaths that came out of nowhere and ultimately serve no point in the big picture. Have characters have clear set in stone reasons for killing other characters and have those deaths mean something before they are approved. Why would a senseless suicide not get approved but if someone just randomly assaults another person and kills them it is perfectly fine? The way I see it Staff should be more like the sense-making part of Mr. Writer’s brain, they should always ask “WTF is this, what is it going to do for the site?” before approving a death and ask if it even makes sense. I mean how fun would Naruto have been if Kakashi went into murderous rampage and slaughtered Team 7 during their bell training (ZOMFG Rin is dead, everyone must die!!!). Have deaths make sense and mean something and you won’t need to have such systems in place, have Staff actually act reasonably towards stupid and spontaneous deaths and suddenly people won’t be afraid to take risks because they won’t feel threatened that their character will be killed just because they offended some big-cheese in the chatbox… Also how is not wanting your character die before you resolve their plot making you “Newbie”, if anything it makes you better writer than a guy who makes their character based on what specialties and elements pass as serviceable in PVP so that they could kill people. How is that person “Advanced” compared to the “Newbies” is beyond my comprehension…

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?

That might actually be a good idea, I’ve seen many good writers complain and struggle about this, say that this kills their writing mood and guess what, less writing boring solo training = more combat and conflict which “drives the site” as we all know. People that care about their characters and just want to tell a story or people that want to earn their SCs may write those training topics or even training plots themselves, nothing is stopping them. This change might actually achieve something positive for a change and I would not really be against it. Then again if people don’t want it, might be a good idea to listen to the people because people make conflict happen and conflict as we all know “drives the site” (just kidding but you get my point right? People are what keeps your site alive, not conflict).

3. Should a better combat system be established clearly detailing the mechanics of combat and how such things should flow?

I’ve suggested a combat-related change in July, I was told that there is no need to needlessly revamp the systems because the current ones work. I took it as the politics of the site of the sort and I don’t see why we should fix something that is not even broken (it is broken in the eyes of some people but since most people that matter think it’s working just fine, means it’s working just fine). I would not be against establishing stuff like “Combat mods” that insert posts of how combat flows after both combatants enter their input serving as some sort of “combat judges” and establishing an actual dodging mechanic like the one I suggested before but there is simply no point, the combat system serves the people who do combat and if they say that our dodging mechanics are fine (dodging mechanics… Whaaaaat even is that?) and that things are fine as they are, means they are enjoying themselves and ultimately that is all that matters.

I say if a combat maniac says the system works, leave it be and leave ‘em happy…

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

I'd like to kind of spit in the face of Vergil and Ruka, mostly because they're derailing the thread, but also because they're completely wrong.

Ruka wrote:: So basically we’d be halting the process of revamping Summonings, Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Touta and many other things only to reinvent combat which most people hate in the first place?

Excuse me, but, do you realize that Summonings, Kekkei Genkai, Kekkei Touta, Specialties, SC's, Jutsu, Weapons... Virtually every single thing on this site that needs to be approved exists for the primary purpose of combat. Let me make this perfectly clear JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT FIGHT OFTEN, DOES NOT MEAN THIS IS NOT A COMBAT ORIENTED SITE. The fact that people are not fighting is not an excuse to say we shouldn't do something about the state of combat. I agree with Koga here, combat on US is high-risk for little reward, making it impractical; but based on the fact that there are entire systems designed to BALANCE the power of jutsu, weapons, SC's, Summons, KKG, Clans, etc. etc. means that this site is built around the notion of combat being the #1 priority. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be such strict rules for jutsu and combat and fucking everything else. There wouldn't be strict rules at all if this site wasn't already themed around combat. Let me reiterate again in case you missed it. JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT FIGHTING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THIS IS NOT A COMBAT ORIENTED SITE. The reason people are not fighting is because the site has failed to achieve the goal of encouraging conflict and combat, not because this is a peaceful site.

You joined a website that does not allow Civilian characters, and where your profession is LITERALLY TO BE A GOD DAMN SOLDIER. Under your logic, this would be the equivalent of playing a CoD game, except instead of going around shooting people, you're talking to them and negotiating peace treaties with other governments. When you join a website whose central theme is that EVERYONE THAT JOINS MUST BE A SOLDIER, you are, by the very fucking definition of being a soldier, implying that you are ready to fight. If that is not the case, then sorry my friend, you picked the wrong site.

@Vergil: Stop complaining about Izayah's topic. Jesus christ man, nobody cares anymore. The "You need a reason to kill someone" rule is not a commandment from god that must be followed to the T. It's a vague rule that was put in place to stop someone from holding OOC grudges, invading someone else's topic and/or killing a character in their own village because, why the fuck not. From my understanding of the fight, Izayah had a reason to kill the character. Actually, he probably had a better reason than anyone else on this site, because his character has fucking mental issues. I love the argument "That SC is so OP because it gives him a reason to kill people". Bro. Bro. Seriously. Like. Do you know how stupid that sounds. Let me put it into an example.

Ninja A is bored and wants to fight.
Ninja B accepts the challenge.
Ninja A kills Ninja B accidentally.
The kill is completely legit, and I doubt anyone would deny it otherwise.

Now here's your logic:
Ninja A has mental issues
Ninja A attacks Ninja B because he's mentally fucking unstable.
Ninja B defends himself but loses to Ninja A
This is totally illegal because Ninja A isn't allowed to have mental issues that let him kill people.

If I can walk into a coffee shop and stab someone to death for no other reason than "I'm bored", then someone who has fucking mental issues should be allowed to slaughter anyone they wish as long as it makes sense with their disability. Gaara killed people because he fucking felt like it, but Izayah can't kill one guy without being called OP for being insane.

Seriously. Just.. Stop.

The rest of the stuff I don't feel like getting into because I'm either a.) biased or b.) indifferent on the issue.

Posts : 358

. . . I like Enzo.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

If you are indifferent to the issue and don't even RP on the site, why do you still behave like a jerk?

People are being asked about their opinions on the issue, opinions are given. You are not the person that needs to defend against the cause because you are never around and when you do pop back up, it's to lash out at people. The example I gave is why a lot of people were losing their shit around the site and why people felt the need to probably set something like this up. I gave an example of the two types of fighting that happen on US. You either get assassinated/attempted to get assassinated or you set up a fight because you want to plot with someone. It's not about Izayah or what he did, so don't turn the thread around and make it seem like I am attacking him over something that happened a long time ago, it's no longer relevant.

You said that because people are not fighting does not mean it is not a combat oriented site. You are right about that at all, but you also need to understand that this site, as well as every other Roleplaying. It is also as Ruka said a place run by people that like to RP on it, not a place run by conflict. If the people up to this point did not want any large scale fighting or a fighting system means that it is not needed because the people do not want it. It is as I said, the people here run the site, not the conflict. We can focus on something like this when all of the other things that need fixing are taken care of because it really is not something I believe we as a site need at this point because there rarely ever is any fighting.

For someone who pops in and out every couple of weeks before going back into hibernation just to provoke some people and send out some personal attacks, which is pretty much what FA threads all eventually become here on US, you should actually take your own advice.

Enzo wrote:: Seriously. Just.. Stop.

Posts : 84

1. I wouldn't say so. That would be akin to introducing a Civilian character template, which you might as well do and be over with. This would create a huge divide between the different character types, with one's being invulnerable to death role-playing directly with those who can be killed. It would be unfair to one side or the other, at most junctions.
However, Naruto is a combat-oriented series and, as far as I recall, every single application requires the inclusion of combat-oriented abilities, so I do believe something needs to be done to alleviate and change the fact that people do not engage in battles. I think the way to go is not in the limiting of what the characters can achieve/be subjected to, but rather limiting what can occur in a topic - in short, a Deathmatch system. Then, according to what they feel like, people can merely avoid DM topics if they so desire, or they can personally seek them out to get their share of enjoyment or advance their characters.

2. While I do feel like it's a major, major drag to have to train everything, which is where US currently stands. I can't say I am not enticed by the idea of having a secondary currency being introduced that allows one to simply acquire it through roleplaying, then allowing him or her to attribute it towards whatever SC they desire. I am not sure how I feel about purchasing rank ups, however (if that is what is being implied, that is). I do think there should still be in place some sort of rule that allows members to directly roleplay for a SC, however, as there are people (like myself) who generally tie down the acquiring of certain SCs to specific plot moments in their character's history. This should still be encouraged, in my opinion. So, I guess a hybrid system of some sorts would be a better one.

3. I, myself, have suggested a similar system in the past, so i cannot say no. It, however, depends on exactly what this system entails and how it is written - I am all for clarifying and evening out the battlefield, and not at all for restricting how abilities/techniques work.

______________________

Enzo is generally correct, even if the tone is entirely wrong. To have a non-combat-oriented Naruto forum, in which at least half of your application is combat oriented, seems just silly to me. it should have a system in place that appeases both sides - the one that does not particularly enjoy fighting and the one that purposefully look for a fight. Neither side is better and, as such, neither side should get special treatment. This goes as much for people looking to abuse the trend of ignoring the causality rule when engaging someone as for those who defend that no combat-focused approach should be taken because, in their minds, no one wants to fight. Perhaps no one wants to fight because the circumstances in which fights occur in US are not pleasant in the least. All the more reason to fix it.

P.S. It would be nice if both Vergil and Enzo could stop blatantly attacking each other for no apparent reason. if nothing ever comes out of this forum's discussion, it's because of replies like this. If people end up complaining the staff doesn't listen to them, it's because people love jumping at each others throats. It does not help the staff, as it makes them lose their will to improve US. Thus, it does not help US. And it certainly does not help you - you lose all credibility. Seriously, it does not help anyone.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Pending response, if only for clarification.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Sorry.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Since it has become apparent that some degree of clarification is needed even though certain responses are rendered entirely pointless when an honest effort to comprehend the original post is made. Thus, prior to responding to any one who posted I'll make an effort to clarify some things I should have made clear in my previous post (although I d did make note that scarcely any of these ideas have made it past vague discussions, clearly that's beside the point).

1. Should a system be devised to separate characters into categories depending on their willingness for unintended or unwanted character death?
To clarify, in terms of balance the tiers would have to adjust if a character at the 'Newbie' level willingly or knowingly inserts himself or herself into a combat oriented topic or plot in which a death match might be likely, with someone who is at the 'Advanced' level, they are consenting to joining the thread, thus for the sake of fairness their own 'difficulty' level would be increased to equal that of their opponent, be it either the 'Adept' or 'Advanced' Tier.

A near perfect example being Cross's recent death topic.

For the sake of said example lets say that Cross has placed his character Take in the 'Advanced' Tier; this means that his character can die by any set of circumstance, presumably by combat. Now with Take he attempts to escape from the village, which I believe we can all assume might naturally be resolved in death or serious injury.

Now let's assume Koga has created his character at the 'Newbie' Tier; this means that no form of death or disfiguring/crippling injury can be inflicted to his character without consent and if such injuries do occur, they are assumed healed to perfect condition. With this same character Koga opts step into Cross' escape thread, intending to stop him from escaping.

Naturally such a situation is entirely unfair to Cross simply because his character can be harmed or killed, whilst his opponent cannot, thus for the sake of fairness Koga's character would be bumped to an equal tier of Cross' character and gifted with all the rewards or limitations assumed to that tier and the two can fight on an equal playing field.

However, after having posting in this thread with informed consent and having his 'Difficulty' Tier bumped up Koga would never be able to return to a lower tier, simply to prevent people from simply opting to put themselves in dangerous situations where they know they can benefit or emerge victorious and then revert to their initial safe standing.

Now obviously any topic with a character in the 'Advanced Tier' can evolve into a combat situation and from there continue into a situation in which death of one or multiple characters is highly likely, thus an escape topic is obviously not the only example.

To further clarify, as Koga pointed out in his response, to this question, if Drizzy were to inturrupt of invade a topic of his, with Koga being at the 'Advanced' Tier, Drizzy obviously must be made aware of this and actions within this thread have the potential for evolving into the Advanced Tier. The same would happen if Koga were to join Drizzy's topic during which Drizzy takes any form of combat oriented action against him.

As I said, each tier would likely grant it's own form of incentive, Hardcore being the 'highest difficulty' likely providing a bonus towards EXP and AF for combat threads or some other such nonsense. Obviously this ties into Koga's desire to establish incentive for combat or conflict, indeed it is very in line with some alterations made to the evaluation system recently.

Now obviously this still has problems and kinks to work out but do keep in mind this is not even really out of concept phase.

2. Would a system devised to remove all training requirements and were simply designed to allow you to jump into role-playing and simply gain everything from Special Characteristics, to Ranks, to Specialty Skill via some form of points similar to AF be a good idea?
Honestly, I should've left this question for a topic in itself, because it is a whole hefty topic of discussion in itself. The only reason I mentioned it in here is because I had initially mentioned SC training when discussing investment in your character. If any further discussion on this question occurs, please assume that only SCs were mentioned until I have time to clarify on possible concepts for changes in another thread. Further, assume much as I said that SC could possibly be obtained by a hefty amount of AF. Any balance issues with the SCs themselves as Koga hint at, will also be discussed in this alternative thread.

My intention with this concept is only as I said, to promote the 'fun' role-playing as opposed to the training which seems to cause many to falter and/or lose motivation (myself included). To be entirely honest from a staff perspective, the word count / training based obtainment for things like Jutsu and Special Characteristics is written as bullshit and we generally don't have the time or harshness to call out most of it.

The intent behind this concept was simply geared towards eliminating both the bullshit and the 'work' from the role - play. Not the 'work' behind earning things, but in this sense I use work to imply things that are viewed as more tedious than entertaining.

3. Should a better combat system be established clearly detailing the mechanics of combat and how such things should flow?
To clarify, mostly for Saint and Koga as they are the only ones who really addressed this directly. I used the term 'System' in this case to mean less of a regulated structure and more of a guide and by guide I mean, something that clearly dictates the same logic that the more educated combatants have learned to follow; including things like the time span logic or the basis and application of interruptions; generally things that some of us know and others don't. I believe that such a system, when understood would allow a lot of people to feel a bit more comfortable with combat if they felt as if they were on a semi-even footing.

Such a system would still leave a lot of room for people to learn as Koga suggest, but give them a more comfortable platform to begin the learning process in terms of what is applicable and what is not. To put it in a simple analogy, it is easiest to learn how to play a game when you are able to play through the tutorial first. It's also more incentive to play the game if you actually know how to play. After all think of all those times in your youth when a friend would want you to play a game with them but withhold or not tell you all the rules or controls.

Such a system would also put everyone on the same page, which was what the problem with Ruka's initial suggestion some time ago. Without understanding all the elements in play a change to a system cannot be made.

As for Ruka and Vergil's post, I can't really take the time to explain all the way they misrepresent my original post and if they had simply taken the time to actually read and consider that I was trying to find a better balance between the two rather than simply jumping to conclusions and making an argument based entirely on conjecture. Whilst Im not going to revisit things I've already discussed [i.e the whole reason for killing someone subject] in the past, I will touch up on two things but only briefly.

Ruka wrote:

Okay so I guess the whole point of why this topic is made is because US wants to see where it stands combat-wise and maybe reinvent itself as a combat oriented site which it never really was. It is not a necessarily bad thing or a good thing, it’s just a thing. A thing that’d require tons of effort and hours spent revising something that most people don’t really feel like doing anyways (I’m not pulling stuff out of my buttocks, that was implied in both Trey’s and some of the other people’s posts). So basically we’d be halting the process of revamping Summonings, Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Touta and many other things only to reinvent combat which most people hate in the first place? Hardly sounds like a smart idea to reorient the whole basis of a site especially when it is not going through its best of times.

As Enzo stated, all of these things revolve around combat to fix them means addressing combat. Logically, if combat is entirely removed from the site there is no reason for as strict of a moderation process [which can pretty confidently say it wont be]. But as it stands without addressing combat in some fashion these things cannot be fixed without addressing the sheer amount of imbalance of various things on this site. I know some see it and exploit it, but I've spent most of my time trying to fix it.

Ruka wrote:

Also how is not wanting your character die before you resolve their plot making you “Newbie”, if anything it makes you better writer than a guy who makes their character based on what specialties and elements pass as serviceable in PVP so that they could kill people. How is that person “Advanced” compared to the “Newbies” is beyond my comprehension…

Since it was apparently lost on you, I said "for lack of a more apt term" when choosing those name which is a nicer way of saying "I pulled them out of my ass." Once again your actual consideration of the original post before jumping to conclusions must be called into question.

In closing, the ideas proposed are simply addressing concepts that I've been considering for a long time attempting to keep those with combat interests in mind and appropriately rewarded for their risk and those with more social or safer intentions in mind and appropriately rewarded for their risk. Not once did I imply or denote that I was intending to turn this into a strictly combat oriented site [which I could argue it technically already is] but as I said some people chose to see only what they wanted to see rather than what was actually being said.

I simply opted to get more input than a simple staff lounge topic because for the most part I know how staff feels about such subjects and since a large majority of you seem to feel like staff never listens, I thought... here lets make a topic where I ask them questions based on ideas I've had.... maybe I can keep it from becoming a tidal wave of irrational and ill constructed arguments... to put it as honest as possible... some of you did better than others.

Discuss and respond further if you so desire, but I should hope we can keep it in relation to the initial three prompts... that I hope I have elaborated well enough to ease up any misunderstandings.

I also apologize for the rather rambling nature of this, I've been trying to squeeze it all together by a reasonable hour so I naturally I lost some points for quality.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Impertinent bump namely regarding the first proposition, given it impacts some changes. If anyone else has any input speak now or hold your peace.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Solved.