Put a lid on it: Genjutsu

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Genjutsu is overpowered

There, I said it, everyone is thinking it but no one really says anything about it. I have seen and heard a lot about Genjutsu that don't require a trigger and for some reason are allowed to immobilize the target, meaning they can't Kai themselves out or inflict pain, seeing as they can't do anything. Now, people will come up with a hundred reasons as to why it is weak or inferior to Aaaaaaall the other specialties and how they are barely balanced. So, let me slap that shit right out of you.

Ninjutsu: You are an omnipotent god and a master of the elements. No, not quite. You can use a lot of different techniques which all follow the rules, can be avoided and countered if one uses their set weakness. Simple, moving on.
Taijutsu: Omg, I can punch people to death. Taijutsu requires one gets within close range, meaning they will get where no one really wants to be, within range of every single jutsu or technique and making themselves vulnerable to attacks. While they make for physically fit fighters, the range thing is their number one weakness.
Weaponry: More or less the same as the above. You get to be a super skilled weapon user, meaning you could potentially kill someone with a stick or a paperclip. Again, you are either a close range fighter and get the same weakness as Taijutsu, or you are limited to Mid or Long ranged combat. Again, this has very simple weaknesses that are set in stone.
Fuuinjutsu: You get to seal things and even opposing attacks. Again, this follows set ranges while the majority of this stuff is based on physical contact and close range.
Medical: You get to heal yourself and others while some will find some solid combat purposes for it, though there is not much here that can't be done outside of the whole Ninjutsu or Taijutsu field. The only tricky thing here is Poison in the form of vapor, which I hate just as much as Genjutsu.
Puppetry: You get to control a puppet which is loaded with weapons and maybe poison, though they also follow set ranges and can be quite easily countered while one can also attack the puppeteer.

We are all being very rough on what we can see in terms of not allowing superspeed, immortality, a penis the size of an elephant, etc etc etc, though everyone ignores the fact that the most overpowered piece of shit just sits there. Genjutsu is just plain retarded, and I am not the only person who feels this way about it at all.

If they are to be made fair an balanced, they need the following:
-Fair Triggers: No "Haha, you stand within 20m of me so now you can't move or use chakra" kind of shit. It's overpowered as fuck and deserves to die a painful death.
-No Instant-Hit: Seeing as a lot of these Genjutsu are just instant hits that immobilize someone, we need to either cut out that factor or just allow the Flying Thunder God, Kirin, Amaterasu, Susano'o and all of that shit too, seeing as these Genjutsu instantly lock you in an illusion that makes it impossible for someone to move, after which they can just slit your throat or suck your dick while you can do nothing about it.
-No Weakness covering: Weaponry users are not allowed more than one field of expertise for reasons of fairness, seeing as they would be able to cover their own weakness if they don't. Genjutsu gets to immobilize people, keep them from moving or using chakra and removes the chance of getting Kai'd out, which is FAR WORSE than allowing a Weaponry user more ranges to go with. So really, this just has to go.

I know full well that the majority of this stuff will not pass or see the light of day, though know that there are people who feel just like me about this. Also, you are allowing overpowered shit to walk in the guise of C ranked jutsu, which is just plain crap if you ask me.

You people want fairness? Get rid of overpowered Genjutsu ._.

Age : 32 Posts : 1495

Really? Something that doesn't do real actual damage and is considered least useful jutsu by some and costs more chakra than taijutsu and weaponry moves and cost really a lot in general is overpowered?

I'm sure jutsu with unfair stuff like stated wouldn't get approved. I'm pretty sure Tsukuyomi and broken stuff like that don't even exist. Stuff like "This genjutsu can't be broken" usually makes it a big "no no" as nothing can just be impossible to beat in that manner of words.

Plus most genjutsu requires eye contact, seeing how great and fair PVP is in roleplaying where "instant" moves can be dodged with great and detailed description as follows "character X dodges (or avoids) the attack (eye contact in this case), because character X is a fricking badass and can see things coming for no apparent reason". If you're worried you'd get owned by people with genjutsu, you won't, don't worry. For one it get's ages to get anything approved here due to staff inactivity alone, second inactive as they may be, staff usually balances jutsu really well. Genjutsu sometimes more than others

If you're worried someone will use genjutsu unfairly in their own storylines involving no one else... Just let the people have their fun...

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Except the counter you gave is total Metagame. If they don't have any effect on a player versus player situation, I could really care less as to what they do with it, though some things simply should not see the light of day. There are always some additional things to jutsu that a Moderator might not see at the time, while there is nothing keeping people from "using the most useless jutsu", or actually, using more of them. If one is immobilized, they can just stack on another one or two Genjutsu, though really, just the immobilizing thing is enough to cancel any form of counter-combat. You can immobilize someone and kill them in the same post, giving people no real chance to avoid.

It's like the Yamanaka clan, they form a hand seal, but you won't know what to dodge because nothing visible is coming at you. Dodging a Yamanaka technique or quickly closing your eyes when you have no IC knowledge as to whether you are fighting a Genjutsu user or Yamanaka clan member or not is complete Metagaming and goes against the rules, meaning that in itself gives a Genjutsu user a massive upper hand in battles.

Posts : 811

I think the problem lies with higher level Genjutsu, namely A and S rank. At that point the effects start getting crazy and are only bound by a no killing rule. An example from the top of my head would be something like this, an A rank Genjutsu that creates an aura around the user. People stepping inside will find themselves bound by chains, roots, etc and immobilizing them. Unable to move they cannot use Kai nor can they inflict pain. This ability is very similar to the one Tayuya used in the anime, only based on a small zone rather than sound.

Basically, the higher the level of genjutsu, the harder it is to break and the crazier things become allowed. In my experience, this mostly turns into the genjutsu immobilizing people and making their minds think the fight continued. So outside of metagaming it is impossible to escape without aid of another person. In addition, triggers are not completely necessary, Genjutsu can be activated simply through handseals from behind a tree.

What I would suggest, would be that genjutsu cannot, at any rank, do things like immobilization. It should work around trickery and deception, the triggers are there to keep opponents on their toes. You flicked your wrist twice, is something different? A slight cough and you vanish. Things like that. The ability to effortlessly immobilize people is what makes high ranking genjutsu so terrifying.

At least, that's how my experiences have gone.

Age : 32 Posts : 1495

The counter I provided may be metagame but I've seen similar things in spars way too many times where attacks from a person with Increased Speed or the A rank SC were simply dodged by just stating the fact of dodging. Since I am too lazy to look for the topics or question people's judgement (maybe they reached some sort of consensus) I'll just leave it at that.

Sure Yamanaka genjutsu has the invisible lockdown thing but it has it's weaknesses too (1v1 lockdowns are mostly useless because you're as stuck with keeping the jutsu as your opponent). While I do agree that a stun is a super cheap thing but you can dodge a follow up with the argument that they cancelled the jutsu to perform an attack and you utilized that moment (most lockdowns only work as long as the jutsu is kept, attacks or other jutsu needs the previous to be dispelled and makes user lose concentration (we're talking about genjutsu, that's how they work)). If you're troubled by being lockdowned in 2v1 (where you can be finished off by the other person while one holds the jutsu) well, why would you engage in that situation (IC)? Also you can be locked down by multiple genjutsu but pretty much nothing else happens except your opponent wastes chakra (chakra pills are the OP thing!!! I mean WTF when was that established???)

If you think the genjutsu shouldn't have been approved, contact a staff member and explain it you'll get a reply in a month or two, maybe in few more months the jutsu will get removed and in about half year you can continue your topic ( Put a lid on it: Genjutsu 815275

). I used to have problems with a lot of things (wooden puppets tanking explosions because they have higher rank, people using instant lightning attacks and other people without any SC dodging it) but then I realized that it's a world where people spit fire for fun, you can't just get overannoyed by stuff being OP when you can just come up with fantasy ways of countering it (don't engage a Yamanaka without setting up a sub and sneaking on them from behind and so on...). I see your point, they are powerful but puppets tank fricking explosions, people heal themselves from near death (not to mention pill themselves to avoid dying of exhaustion Evil or Very Mad

), ninjutsu users can coat themselves in walls or shield with fields of lightning and stuffz... Everything's OP in Naruto world, the longer the series go, the more OP it gets, the site just needs to realise where it's willing to end the sentence so that things don't go out of control and old stuff can still stay relevant.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Still,

Even if it may have taken place in a spar with Taijutsu, BSing a Genjutsu is something else entirely and will always result in a member of staff having to be used as a liaison to tell you that your counter was invalid. I agree with pretty much everything Daedalus said.

Also, you can't just BS knowing that someone is a Genjutsu user or a Yamanaka, so that is another thing that simply won't work without Metagaming.

Posts : 1729

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

Genjutsu can be Kai'ed. Always. No exceptions. The only stipulation to this is that the user must be aware they are in an illusion. Which leads to point 2.
Improved and Keen Perception; the two SCs that will always allow you to work out IC reasoning for realizing you are in a Genjutsu. If you don't have this SC, tough titties, don't get in a fight with a genjutsu user.
Fair triggers; this is already a thing. This is already enforced. The Genjutsu you are no doubt referencing has been fixed. If you see a genjutsu approved that doesn't have this, tell a god damned moderator.
Genjutsu are, by there very nature, instant hit, because they are not a physical assault, they are a MENTAL assault. You do not even become aware you are being attacked until you ARE being attacked.
Weakness covering; see point 1. So long as you can become aware you are in the illusion, you will always be able to use Kai.
If you see an illusion that you think is overpowered, send a PM to a moderator stating your case, and the specific genjutsu in question.

Do not create a fecking Forum Assistance topic calling out the entire specialty.

Topic now unlocked.

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Age : 49 Posts : 1036

BK-201 wrote:

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

[list=1]
[*]Improved and Keen Perception; the two SCs that will always allow you to work out IC reasoning for realizing you are in a Genjutsu. If you don't have this SC, tough titties, don't get in a fight with a genjutsu user.

[*]
So people are going to be required to take an SC to face off against a specialty?

Sorry BK but if that is the case then why doesn't that same logic apply to other specialties? After all, if someone can create a near-invisible blade of wind then why can anyone dodge it? Shouldn't dodging any jutsu faster than a certain speed require one of the Improve Speed SCs? Nor does it take a genius level intellect to figure out that if your opponent is slinging fire and lightning jutsu around then suddenly a tree sprouts behind you its probably an illusion since you aren't fighting a Senju. Remember that while not all ninja can use illusions per site rules, that doesn't mean that they aren't fully aware of their existence and if something seems odd aren't going to suspect an illusion before accepting the reality of a situation. That is why when I made my characters few illusions I went for the ones that try to be subtle instead of blatant. Less powerful? Maybe, but less chance of being easily detected too.

Maybe what is needed is for there to be some way to define just how difficult or easy a genjutsu is to detect. If something is fairly subtle, ala the "False Place Jutsu", then it could very well be rated high enough that only one of those SC's could break it. However something that requires massive suspension of disbelief or just outright seems so weird that ones first reaction should be to check for an illusion should rate near the bottom. Heck I have something like that in the system I'm working on now. More stat-heavy but it is doable and would prevent a "oops you don't have this SC so now you're going to get Gen-raped" situation.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

NuclearTreerat wrote:

BK-201 wrote:

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

[list=1]
[*]Improved and Keen Perception; the two SCs that will always allow you to work out IC reasoning for realizing you are in a Genjutsu. If you don't have this SC, tough titties, don't get in a fight with a genjutsu user.

[*]
So people are going to be required to take an SC to face off against a specialty?

Sorry BK but if that is the case then why doesn't that same logical apply to other specialties? After all, if someone can create a near-invisible blade of wind then why can anyone dodge it? Shouldn't dodging any jutsu faster than a certain speed require one of the Improve Speed SCs? Nor does it take a genius level intellect to figure out that if your opponent is slinging fire and lightning jutsu around then suddenly a tree sprouts behind you its probably an illusion since you aren't fighting a Senju.

[*]

Pretty much sums up the majority of my thoughts on the matter.

Posts : 1729

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

Oi vey. Alright, alright, Genjutsu rules are going under revision anyway. I'm sure some genjutsu-detection rules can stand to be slipped in.

Age : 30 Posts : 1688

The genjutsu guide is going under construction, as Travis has said, and a lot of the edits will be made to clarification on triggers, and that all types of genjutsu will require them; save for optical illusions, seeing as they're light that is being bent into a hologram, basically.

All of the issues should be sorted out as the guide is revamped.

Posts : 1729

CleverYamanaka wrote:: The genjutsu guide is going under construction, as Travis has said, and a lot of the edits will be made to clarification on triggers, and that all types of genjutsu will require them; save for optical illusions, seeing as they're light that is being bent into a hologram, basically.

All of the issues should be sorted out as the guide is revamped.

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

And there be the man in charge of revising them! Last I checked at least. In either case, I will now promptly throw him to the wolves and make like merry hell out of this.

Age : 30 Posts : 1688

I've said my bit.

Genjutsu guide is getting revised. Until then, stop whining.

Nothing more to say.

Age : 30 Posts : 1688

Solved.