Special Characteristics

Age : 34 Posts : 344

I have a couple of straight-forward questions that I'd like answers to, regarding (as the title demonstrates) Special Characteristics.

The first question would be if the chakra cost reduction granted by certain Special Characteristics stack, if a specific technique is encompassed by two different Special Characteristics of that class.

An example of this would be, say, a particular Ninjutsu technique that also belongs to the character's Bloodline. Would that technique, in this case, be granted two different reductions, if the character in question possessed both the "Ninjutsu Master" and the "Clan Prodigy" Special Characteristics?

I assume the answer to this is no but, regardless, an accredited answer to it would be appreciated.
The second question would be marginally more abstract, I suppose, and more of a personal curiosity. Can anyone enlighten me on the usage and/or purpose of the Intelligence Special Characteristics? I ask this because, in my opinion, they seem to be rather dysfunctional.

A character's ability to think on their feet, react to attacks, outwit the opponent, or coming up with a strategy to defeat enemies should and has to come from the person behind it, the person roleplaying it. As such, a person who has a tactical mind and is able to easily come up with counterattacks, convoluted strategies and/or figure out a way to outwit the enemies gains nothing with these Special Characteristics. On the other hand, someone who does not possess those abilities or does not have them in such a developed state, neither gets an increase in them, nor suddenly becomes enriched with various counterattack ideas, just by supplementing their character with this particular Special Characteristic.

With these thoughts in mind, the "High IQ" Special Characteristic, in itself, grants nigh nothing, as regardless of the possession of this Special Characteristic, the person's abilities will always be the deciding factor behind it all. Naturally, you can word it as attractively as you want, and the inclusion of the mathematical and thinking ability further nudges towards the notion of the deciding factor being the person behind the character. Of course, it may have an effect, inside the roleplay universe, of the character being recognized for those abilities, but when it actually counts - in fights, disputes, and so on - a person's lacking in these departments will not be supplanted or compensated by the Special Characteristic.

As for the "Strategist" Special Characteristic, the improved version of the above, the circumstance is virtually the same. Surely, the ability to keep themselves from getting lost and an increased sense of direction may or may not become assets, but that is, essentially, the full extent of the benefits. Once more, the strategical/perceptive/analytical side of the Special Characteristic cannot exist by itself, without the backing of those same characteristics belonging to the person behind the character. There is also the final portion of the description that mentions one's augmented ability to notice details. Doesn't this last fragment, also, find itself on the verge of becoming a diluted version of the Perception Special Characteristics, who also grants you that proficiency, as well as other contextual boons, making it a much better choice and, therefore, rendering the "Strategist" obsolete?

In essence - what do these Special Characteristics really grant, considering what I mentioned above?

This is merely a conjecture based on my point of view and opinion, but regardless, I'd like to hear some sort of reply to these thoughts.

Posts : 1729

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

Master Cost Reduction Stacking

Absolutely not.
High IQ and Strategist

Essentially, they grant you the ability to devise IC "on the fly" a strategy that actually took you several OOC hours to come up with.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Figured the reply to the first one would be that, sounds fair.

As for the second - aren't people still able to do that? I mean, I can speak for myself: About all of the strategies I come up with are devised instantly, as soon as I finish reading a post, as some sort of instinctual response, regardless of their quality.

Even if that wasn't the case, what's stopping people from utilizing those strategies, in the roleplay? How can you properly judge if a person was able to do it instantly, OOC, or not and, thus, stop those who did not do it instantly and, yet, utilized that strategy in their post?

I've found myself coming up with some pretty convoluted strategies/plans in seconds previously (not on this forum, naturally), that could have easily been mistaken by something that could have taken quite some minutes, if not a couple of hours, to ponder through. There have also been other occasions in which hours were taken to come up with a relatively simply, yet extremely effective, strategy that can easily be passed up as something instantaneous, IC. Wouldn't this be unfair for those who are more instinctual and inclined to doing complex things? So, where is the line drawn?

I have to reiterate that I have no issue with the Special Characteristic itself or those who have it. I'm just curious as to why it exists and, thus, why people decide to have it.

Thank you for the replies, too.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Since we're on the topic thought I would ask my questions instead of starting yet another thread.

With all the grouped/ chained SC's, are all the ones in a "chain" the sort where one replaces the other - taking only one SC slot - while retaining the effect lower one? Or is it only those that offer an increased bonus (ex the CP cost reduction ones) while the rest are simply prerequisites with each taking up their own slot?

Example: High IQ is required for the Tutor profession and Strategist is one of the 3 options for ANBU. If the former then someone with Strategist would qualify for entry into either profession while in the later they would have to invest 2 SC's.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Further, are strategist and High IQ not to some degree more personality traits than 'special characteristics'? Yeah not everyone is super smart or strategically minded, but they are essentially a waste of an SC slot given that you cannot RP beyond your means even with the SC. Someone who is belligerently unintelligent would hardly be able to make full or appropriate use of something like High IQ would they ?

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Mister E wrote:: Further, are strategist and High IQ not to some degree more personality traits than 'special characteristics'? Yeah not everyone is super smart or strategically minded, but they are essentially a waste of an SC slot given that you cannot RP beyond your means even with the SC. Someone who is belligerently unintelligent would hardly be able to make full or appropriate use of something like High IQ would they ?

And that is exactly my point.

A person that does not possess those characteristics cannot properly roleplay a character who does possess them, considering that the SCs themselves do not really grant anything in that department. That conclusion was what stemmed my question, in the first place.

Age : 30 Posts : 1688

I've always agreed with this. In fact, from what I've seen over the course of time, a lot of dumb asses pick the high IQ special characteristic and make their characters incredibly dumb, just because they are. In most cases, those with enough common tact, and wit are able to mold their character into being smart and capable without such a SC. Even so, it's not really doing anyone harm by being there, is it? Basically, if someone wants it at this point: cool, grab it. I think that the SCs real value, though not much at all, comes into pure social things. Solving puzzles quickly, finding patterns in ancient languages, perhaps being extremely tech savvy with something, Iunno. Meh.

Posts : 471

CleverYamanaka wrote:: I've always agreed with this. In fact, from what I've seen over the course of time, a lot of dumb asses pick the high IQ special characteristic and make their characters incredibly dumb, just because they are. In most cases, those with enough common tact, and wit are able to mold their character into being smart and capable without such a SC. Even so, it's not really doing anyone harm by being there, is it? Basically, if someone wants it at this point: cool, grab it. I think that the SCs real value, though not much at all, comes into pure social things. Solving puzzles quickly, finding patterns in ancient languages, perhaps being extremely tech savvy with something, Iunno. Meh.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to make it a social SC, since it's use in actual fighting is basically zero? I think with your suggestions, the use of it would be better applied elsewhere or in more specific situations, as you stated.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Nomi wrote:

CleverYamanaka wrote:: I've always agreed with this. In fact, from what I've seen over the course of time, a lot of dumb asses pick the high IQ special characteristic and make their characters incredibly dumb, just because they are. In most cases, those with enough common tact, and wit are able to mold their character into being smart and capable without such a SC. Even so, it's not really doing anyone harm by being there, is it? Basically, if someone wants it at this point: cool, grab it. I think that the SCs real value, though not much at all, comes into pure social things. Solving puzzles quickly, finding patterns in ancient languages, perhaps being extremely tech savvy with something, Iunno. Meh.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to make it a social SC, since it's use in actual fighting is basically zero? I think with your suggestions, the use of it would be better applied elsewhere or in more specific situations, as you stated.

^
Much this, it sucks as a combat SC.

Posts : 1729

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

Honestly? They're fluff. The Mental Characteristics would look very empty indeed if we pared them down to the ones with direct combat utility; ie, Perception.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

BK-201 wrote:

What in the hell are you going on about now? Stop wasting my time.

Honestly? They're fluff. The Mental Characteristics would look very empty indeed if we pared them down to the ones with direct combat utility; ie, Perception.

Only if they're allowed to stay that way due to a lack of creative thinking.

High IQ and Strategist could have sections added where it allows a limited number of "backtracks" in a thread on the grounds that a tactically-inclined mind is more likely to anticipate an opponents reactions. With Strategist allowing for more backtracks than the lower-ranked SC.

Perception is already in a good place.

Tracker could be rewritten to also allow the character with it to follow their current target from thread to thread without needing travel threads.

Navigator is already mostly about the Courier-Nin profession but it could also give the holder a degree of immunity from effects that primarily disorientate. Yes I'm looking at you Sly Mind.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

I agree with almost everything Nuclear just said, I simply don't see what some of these SC's have to offer someone who is already a smart person as a writer. I mean, people can BS about how smart their character is all they want, but if the one writing it is a total retard, that won't help them anyway, making it a waste of space as a combat SC. I can see it be worth something as a social sc in a way, seeing as being smart affects that more than actual fighting, seeing as every combat writer is smart to a certain degree.

Not entirely sure what is implied when Backtracks are brought up though, so if you could clear that bit up for me, that would be cool.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

A backtrack is when you "take back" one or more actions your character made in a prior post after the next person has responded by writing in your current one that you noticed something and reacted to it. Ala cannon 3-tome sharigan's ability to predict an opponents actions. Usually its done because the response is some sort of counter that makes you not want to have done those actions in the first place. A good example would be in one post you have your character open a door, the next post your opponent says they've trapped the door, and on your next post saying you stopped short of opening the door because you expected a trap and saw the tripwire attached to it.

Technically its a form of "metagaming" and mostly forbidden. I was thinking these 2 SC's being cases where it make sense to allow it since both SC's are primarily about being able plan further ahead and a big part of that is being able to anticipate an opponents actions and reactions.

In fact that is probably the ONLY change I would make to Perception. Removing the ability to "read" an opponent. While anyone with good senses can pick up tell-tales or patterns (especially if they're looking for them), it takes a great deal of brain work to convert those mental notes into a useable form.

Oh and yes I'm willing to do the work involved to change them.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Ah, I see...

I think i'd rather keep backtracking and metagaming on the forbidden list =P

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Spectre wrote:: Ah, I see...

I think i'd rather keep backtracking and metagaming on the forbidden list =P

Actually its already happening and allowed. Classic example: one character says they do the handseals for Chidori - which requires a fair number - and then charges their opponent. Said opponent writes that they throw a number of weapons at the person while they're busy forming the handseals. Not illogical when in light of an amateur like myself beginning able to get 2 or 3 accurate knife tosses off in that time and we're talking about soldiers trained from childhood.

That is also backtracking.

In fact backtracking is almost mandatory in play-by-post. Otherwise all it takes to is one person waiting for the other guy to post then putting down their actions in a way that denies the target a chance to react until everything is done. For example: in the example in my prior post with the explosives on the doors - declared AFTER the first person already said they were opening it. Really any time the major drawback to something is in the amount of preparation it takes, without backtracking that whole disadvantage goes out the window.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

A guy I know used to do stuff like that on Ingoo all the time. Basically voiding every post I made by saying he moved before I did, even though he had no way to do that. I called it Time-Travelling, seeing as most of the crap he pulled could never be done so easily, and seeing as he was no Uchiha, there was no way to foresee what was going on. At the time, people cracked the hammer of staff on that pretty hard, so I hope people do that here to.

Stuff like that just voids any kind of damage ever being received -_-

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

That is partially why I was thinking tying it to SC's with a limited number of per-thread uses. Kind of like how some sites limit the replacement technique to no more than 1 per post because otherwise it can negate pretty much any damage at all being received. If you can only use it say 1 or 2 times it becomes a matter of "do I use it now and hope I don't need it later, or save it until the situation is really bad."

Age : 34 Posts : 344

I do agree that it generally is useless as a combat SC. Whether it is (or should be, in the end) considered merely fluff and filling material, so that particular category isn't empty, is not for me to decide, but I can't help finding myself agreeing with the notions already given on this topic that, if that's the case, then it perhaps is due to a lack of creative manpower, to put it that way. Surely, there must be people with valid ideas that are worth getting looked at - staff or not. I'm aware that a SC overhaul has just been completed, and I still can't help but feel slightly peeved that such a process occurred while still leaving behind certain SCs behind that are still redundant or even ineffective. Not to say that the overhaul and subsequent changes weren't needed or done properly, as I find it to be a significant improvement to the previous SC system, but it's never good to leave things unfinished, one way or the other.

As for the whole backtrack concept - I, too, am not a huge fan of it. While the last example given by NuclearTreerat makes it considerably more reasonable, the whole concept of it leaves me having doubts and I can't help finding myself agreeing with Spectre on this one.

Without a system like that in place, people have already no difficulty in weaseling their way out of attacks, damage and situations that should be particularly complicated to deal with. While restricting it to a one time usage, there will always be people who will abuse it, or continue doing it nonetheless, while claiming that Situation A was not the usage of the backtrack, merely their character countering what the enemy does, and then going on to use the backtrack (effectively a second time) on Situation B.

I think that for a concept such as this backtrack one to be in place, there would equally need to be other systems put in place alongside it, namely some sort of system that allows and requires the moderators to have guidelines on how to standardize and judge if something is a backtrack or merely a counter and, in that case, one would be delving quite deeply into the domain of subjectivity. Could it be done? Most likely. The question is - is the effort worth it?

Ultimately, I could see this backtrack idea working, but I think that it would take a large effort to turn it into something properly regulated and fair, possibly more effort than something like this deserves, as I can see the staff not only having to develop a working system for it, but also would possibly find themselves being required to effectively check and rule on the usage of backtracks on most threads that involved them. And that on a site that already generally finds itself with a lack of manpower, from time to time, and focuses most of the workload on a few individuals, is most likely not a brilliant idea.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

And I, in turn, agree with Kage on that Backtracking would need a marvelous system that I doubt can be made. As such, I think we should just leave that for what it is and not get into it any further, who knows, people just might find a way to make it work and add it to the site (Which I truly hope will never ever ever happen).

So, for those SC's like Genius level intellect being Social SC's rather than Combat SC's, should we have some kind of vote for that or something? I dunno, seems like a good way to figure out what people think of it.
In case we do vote, I vote the whole "High IQ" should be a Social SC.

+1

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Not to necro this topic, but (okay, totally trying to necro this topic)... where does this stand exactly?

Is there the need to be some kind of discussion/suggestion, or does no one really care about it anymore?

Just wondering Rolling Eyes

Posts : 1729

I'm retired, so I don't have any shits left to give.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Vote goddamnit!

Age : 29 Posts : 4301

Since you're able to bring this up in the Staff Lounge now...

Solved.