Poisons

Posts : 1729

Poisons:

Can be hyperlethal
Can only be utilized by Puppetry and Medical users
Only Medical and Puppetry users can be immune to it
In gaseous state, are SOBs to dodge
Have essentially no chakra cost to use when utilized properly, and are effectively limitless in the course of a usual battle.

After speaking with Kage, I'm given to understand that this is the list of options for people without Medical and Puppetry, in regards to defending against poisons.

Must sacrifice an S-rank equipment/weapon slot to even be allowed to defend against gaseous poisons by themselves.
Dodge.

So, who of hands... Who thinks that there can stand to be a littttle more leniency when it comes to defending against poisons? At least as far as "If you don't have S-ranked equipment, get bent" goes.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Never said those were your only options. You claimed the only option was to have the S ranked piece of equipment, I said you could always dodge. Never have I affirmed it was your only alternative.

Nor have I ever said my opinion - that an S rank begets an S rank - was to be taken as a fact. I told you you could take it up with Adam, if you wanted, for example. If you want to complain about something you believe is unfair, as if you've been wronged, then be my guest . But don't include me in your complaints in such a way that I am part of them.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

I don't see why a C-rank Futon jutsu or a small explosive tag wouldn't be sufficient for blowing away a gas-type poison. You could also just stand upwind of it. There are plenty of other scenarios where one should be able to protect themselves from poison gases. Suiton users should be able to cover their bodies in a bubble temporarily for example, assuming they have a jutsu for doing so.

I don't see a poison user complaining to staff if you used any of the above methods or some other sound logical reason for evading/countering gas poisons.

My question is, are invisible gases allowed? In that case I think there is a problem that should be addressed. As long as a gas is detectable, most character have something that could save them in their arsenal whether the realize it or not. Even Taijutsu specialists could just their monster strength to uproot a small tree to use as a fan.

Posts : 1729

Quote :: After speaking with Kage, I'm given to understand

Before you go in a rush to defend your reputation Kage, make sure it's actually necessary; I did not list anything you said in our conversation. I merely stated what I took with me from it.

Age : 29 Posts : 1688

Always liked the idea of more than just puppet users, and medical ninja, using poisons. Or having any understanding of them at all, really. Sure, they're the only ones able to make it themselves, but that does not stop anyone from buying it? As we have it, it's like saying "you have to make your own bleach or detergent, because you cannot buy it," when that's simply not the case. I use detergent, because I would assume that, to a ninja, poison is not at all uncommon; just like detergent is not at all uncommon in our everyday lives. Hopefully ._.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

CleverYamanaka wrote:: Always liked the idea of more than just puppet users, and medical ninja, using poisons. Or having any understanding of them at all, really. Sure, they're the only ones able to make it themselves, but that does not stop anyone from buying it? As we have it, it's like saying "you have to make your own bleach or detergent, because you cannot buy it," when that's simply not the case. I use detergent, because I would assume that, to a ninja, poison is not at all uncommon; just like detergent is not at all uncommon in our everyday lives. Hopefully ._.

I could see some of the less deadly and easier to handle poisons being purchased as one time use consumables(not the kind you eat.) Perhaps C and E rank poisons with minor, non-lethal, debilitating effects.

But I would not support opening poisons up to everyone freely because not everyone is going to have the knowledge and experience in poisons to effectively and safely use the stronger ones. IC reasons for this would be small and simple as while I might own an S-Rank poison gas bomb, my character doesn't know how to make an antidote if he/she accidentally gets affected.

Because the character lacks that professional knowledge, no village poison shop is going to sell them the stuff. I don't think I really need to go into the OOC reasons why non-puppetry/medical nin shouldn't be able to obtain high ranking poisons.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

CleverYamanaka wrote:: Always liked the idea of more than just puppet users, and medical ninja, using poisons. Or having any understanding of them at all, really. Sure, they're the only ones able to make it themselves, but that does not stop anyone from buying it? As we have it, it's like saying "you have to make your own bleach or detergent, because you cannot buy it," when that's simply not the case. I use detergent, because I would assume that, to a ninja, poison is not at all uncommon; just like detergent is not at all uncommon in our everyday lives. Hopefully ._.

If something like this was to ever pass, it would be limited to the same out of spec limitations as the other specialties. You know, how people of S ranked can use C rank and below out of spec specialties like Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu and Weaponry. That said, other people "buying" poisons would need to be monitored, seeing as bought poison can only be used once, and I see people "forgetting" about this. Also, I think poisons should only be able to be bought IC, so they won't get store-credit by buying some site-made thing. That said, I don't like poisons being handed out like free candy, but meh. Just my two cents on the matter.

And while we are on the subject, I think we should ban A/S ranked Gaseous poisons, they are simply too OP and anyone who does not have some Immunity to it will get caught in it unless they metagame. Went through some stuff and I think it's just too overpowered. C/B ranked, sure, but having lethal gas based poison is stupid and overpowered.

Age : 28 Posts : 3145

Make poison-making an SC?

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Seems like a massive waste of an SC, seeing as it's one of the few perks puppeteers get, while it's just a thing that belongs to Medical Shinobi. I vote against it being an SC.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

There's nothing for me to defend, I was merely clarifying a sentence that you had left in clear ambiguity, that is all.

As for the topic at hand, I do agree that poisons might need a stricter ruling regarding them. Whether that is a "nerf", or simply a better specification regarding their limits and their respective usages, it is something to be seen, as far as I'm concerned. In terms of rulings, it is definitely overly simplified and leaves too much in the open for people to take advantage of. Perhaps a clarification and restriction regarding they way they can affect the characters is in order, as a way to restrict their effectiveness. Though, in essence, I think both BK and Spectre are simply creating a storm that needn't happen, based on personal shortcomings perhaps, as I personally don't find gaseous poisons all that difficult to deal with. To be perfectly honest, liquid poisons to me are a lot harder to deal with than gaseous, theoretically. But that is just me, perhaps I'm overly creative.

As for the out-of spec usage... I'm not entirely sure about that. Perhaps, like Spectre said, if its limited to C ranked and lower, for higher ranked characters, but that should be it. Poisons are, after all, a nice perk to puppeteers and medical ninja, and it should perhaps stay that way.

Regarding the SC, to me it just doesn't make sense to waste a slot on something like that, as it should inherently come with (at least) puppetry and eijutsu.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

Just popping in again to also express doubts in making the use of poisons an SC. That doesn't really solve the problem and messes with the balance of the various specialties.

I'll also re-state my support for the idea of C-rank poisons and below being available to others. It makes sense and is a simple fix to the problem of irrational exclusivity without taking away the value in being specialized in poisons.

Finally, a few more words about what else could be fine tuned around poisons. I see the concerns about gas poisons being too powerful, and also understand where Kage is coming from when he says he's more worried about liquid type poisons. What we should keep in perspective is that this is a roleplay forum and and role play threads are co-operative. This is why we weed out "Godmod" powers/items/etc. to keep things somewhat fair.

So long as staff has good judgement, we shouldn't have to worry about a truly unfair poison even getting approved. So long as it can't insta hit, be undetectable, or cause insta death, then there shouldn't be a problem. If you are aware of unfair poisons, then just quote them and post them up in a thread like this and staff can help clear things up.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Kage. wrote:: Though, in essence, I think both BK and Spectre are simply creating a storm that needn't happen, based on personal shortcomings perhaps, as I personally don't find gaseous poisons all that difficult to deal with. To be perfectly honest, liquid poisons to me are a lot harder to deal with than gaseous, theoretically. But that is just me, perhaps I'm overly creative.

While I get what you are saying, i'd rather deal with a liquid poison that needs to enter me first, rather than someone who can just make a cloud of the stuff that can kill me the moment I take a breath. We both know that in terms of shortcomings, I will always find loopholes or whatever to work around is, just like Travis know doubt can do. Like I said before, Gas cannot be dodged, gas without a scent, flavor or coloration can't be found out without metagaming while they can be equally potent to other forms of poison.

My point it, i'd rather people come at me with a poisoned dagger than a cloud of gas.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

Spectre wrote:: Like I said before, Gas cannot be dodged, gas without a scent, flavor or coloration can't be found out without metagaming while they can be equally potent to other forms of poison.

If you know of an approved poison gas that is colorless, odorless, and otherwise undetectable then please link it so it can be addressed by staff as a whole. I'm sure someone on staff has the brains to see that is godmod and we can get it fixed.

But unless there is an approved gas like this out there, please have faith that your staff isn't foolish enough to let something like that slide. From what I've seen they appear quite competent at picking out overpowered traits from new custom jutsu and equipment.

EDIT: So long as you can see a gas, its not impossible to dodge or counter. There are other things to take into account such as how the gas is made/introduced to the field. If there are hand signs, or a bomb of sorts involved then there are even more ways to defend yourself.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Spectre wrote:: ...

But that opinion of yours is coming from a mistaken position, in the first place. Because, in essence, you're using a poison that, in itself, sound extremely overpowered (undetectable and deadly, especially if it's instant, which goes against every rule promoting balance and fairness), and that would never see the light of day, as far as I'm concerned.. If anything like that exists at the moment, then it seriously needs to disappear at once. That doesn't mean, however, that the poisons, themselves, are that flawed. Only that that particular type of poison managed to pass through without being noticed and/or nerfed.

And while you're right about the liquid poison having to touch you, the gas poison (to me), is equally extremely easy to deal with. Off the top of my head, you can not only dodge it, if the conditions are right, but also use a multitude of regular techniques and/or elements to nullify or neutralize the cloud of poison. The way you guys are complaining about poisons is, in my view, unjustified, because all you're using are examples of poisons that shouldn't exist, in the first place. Again, this isn't a flaw with the system itself, but a flaw with these poisons getting through (if they have, I don't know, you are the ones bringing it up).

Posts : 1729

Let me rephrase; all I'm saying is, if it's in a gaseous form, I shouldn't need a bloody S-rank gas mask to block out an S-rank poison Poisons 287405

Age : 34 Posts : 344

BK-201 wrote:: Let me rephrase; all I'm saying is, if it's in a gaseous form, I shouldn't need a bloody S-rank gas mask to block out an S-rank poison

And that, clearly, is all that matters to you, right? Figures.

Age : 37 Posts : 2201

- What did you mean first Travis when you said that medicals and puppetry users are immune to poisons? Surely they aren't literally immune, and you meant they have means of healing themselves or using antidotes? I NEED THINGS SPELLED OUT FOR ME, 'KAY?

- I honestly think poisons should stay just with the medical and puppetry users. Because it is difficult (obviously) enough to deal with poisons and their system as it is, and also I simply can't think of better users than those two categories (puppetry and medical). To allow every single random person to use poison (granted ninjas at higher ranks from what I understood) that just means that every other person will end up poisoned on this site. Or perhaps I am being too dramatic... maybe. Razz

I just find that poison makes puppetry and medical worth taking, tbh. It's something unique to them, and I find that they are both a bit difficult to use in combat (at least during the first low ranks). More so medical though.

I also like Mugen's justification very much:

Mugen wrote:: But I would not support opening poisons up to everyone freely because not everyone is going to have the knowledge and experience in poisons to effectively and safely use the stronger ones. IC reasons for this would be small and simple as while I might own an S-Rank poison gas bomb, my character doesn't know how to make an antidote if he/she accidentally gets affected.

Because the character lacks that professional knowledge, no village poison shop is going to sell them the stuff. I don't think I really need to go into the OOC reasons why non-puppetry/medical nin shouldn't be able to obtain high ranking poisons.

IF we were to allow others to use poison, then yeah I'd also support that they'd not be allowed to have over C ranked ones.

- I also vote for restricting poison a bit more. Having A and S ranked poisons is just a bit crazy o.O ... And I don't think we have ever allowed invisible poison to be approved. I at least hope that hasn't happened..............

Age : 33 Posts : 718

I apologize, I kind of pulled the conversation away from your equipment and I think we all forgot. It's understandable that a higher quality poison might have smaller particles making it harder to filter. But at the same time, I don't think a gas mask should need to be S rank to provide any defense against an S rank poison gas.

Cant you both compromise by simple making a scale for how often you must purge the mask based on how advanced the poison gas is? Example:

Quote :: Cleaning is accomplished with a simple (Insert your cleaning method here, the water idea you had was a good start). Each cleaning costs 5cp, however the frequency of required cleanings varies depending on how advanced the threat is.

S Rank - Every 2 Turns
A Rank - Every 4 Turns
B Rank - Every 6 Turns
C Rank - Every 8 Turns
D Rank - Every 10 Turns
E Rank - Every 12 Turns

This way it isn't like it makes gas poisons useless, but neither is your equipment.

EDIT: Also! For your mask which seems to be causing issues. Just change the explanation of how your mask is being fitted to your face. For example, you have Suiton, so the chakra could simply produce the same sticky substance made from the Starch Syrup Capturing Field That way you have a one time cost that makes an adhesive you can use for an extended period of time without feeding it more chakra.

Posts : 1729

Kage. wrote:

BK-201 wrote:: Let me rephrase; all I'm saying is, if it's in a gaseous form, I shouldn't need a bloody S-rank gas mask to block out an S-rank poison

And that, clearly, is all that matters to you, right? Figures.

Pardon me if you got confused by all the big words and got off on a tangent completely unrelated from the direction I was trying to take it in, and I had to condense it into a single-sentence summary.

Poisons have no business going to anyone outside the Medical and Puppetry specialties; it takes time and dedication to develop and synthesize these things, and they're likely the only ones with back-up options in case they poison themselves.

As I was saying, as it stands, the only people who can muster ANY sort of defense against Poisons on the whole are Puppetry and Medical users. Those are the only two specialties that can get the Immunity SC, and Medical has the added bonus of being able to heal and cure it as well. Anyone without either of those two specialties is limited to just trying as hard as they can to not get poisoned in the first place.

And if liquid poisons are, in your "opinion" harder to evade and deal with than gaseous poisons, then why do you insist one must have a piece of equipment of equal rank to a gaseous poison to block out said gaseous poison?

Age : 37 Posts : 2201

Again, Mugen comes with a very nice little speech that I like. I shall now be his speech liker. cat

I'd also not want masks to really 'cost' anything to be used, but I can live with them having to be cleaned out or something like that every now and then.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

BK-201 wrote:: And if liquid poisons are, in your "opinion" harder to evade and deal with than gaseous poisons, then why do you insist one must have a piece of equipment of equal rank to a gaseous poison to block out said gaseous poison?

I fail to see how that's relevant, in the least. I also fail to understand why you keep coming up with these unrelated and logically innacurate arguments. They are completely unrelated issues and, even, in different jurisdictions. Just because I find something harder to deal with doesn't mean the other should be dealt with with just about any method, and specially methods of lower ranks. I insist on it because that is what I deem to be fair.

Now, are you going to actually continue with the fruitful discussion of an issue that seems to concern a number of people, or are you still going to continue obsessing over not getting your things approved, exactly as you want them?

Mugen Kousen wrote:: ...

As for what you, Mugen, said, I'm not sure how a compromise like that would work. Cleaning it out sounds fine and dandy, but it cannot be instantaneous and cheap at the same time. That would destroy the whole purpose of it needing cleaning, in the first place.

For the sticking solution, that would work, but that involves making a technique to have it happen, not a property of the mask itself. So, again, sounds like something that might not work, in the first place. Then again, lets keep that discussion to the topic it is meant to be in, as that is a separate topic that does not need to spill anywhere else.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Alright, I suggest Staff handles this from here on out, this became nothing more than a pissing match between BK and Kage. Even though it was originally him attacking my creation, I see Travis already made another friend. It's almost cute how well you get along with people.

Age : 29 Posts : 1688

WHOA.

Tl;dr.

Unless someone wants to sparknotes me on this, I think Im out for the count...

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

CleverYamanaka wrote:: WHOA.

Tl;dr.

Unless someone wants to sparknotes me on this, I think Im out for the count...

Always with the over the top, useful comments that help us all forward as a site. Without the guidance of an admin such as yourself, we would be truly lost...

Age : 29 Posts : 1688

Spectre wrote:

CleverYamanaka wrote:: WHOA.

Tl;dr.

Unless someone wants to sparknotes me on this, I think Im out for the count...

Always with the over the top, useful comments that help us all forward as a site. Without the guidance of an admin such as yourself, we would be truly lost...

No but srsly, I do plan on reading this and getting back to you all on it. Seems that this discussion has really taken off in all kinds of ways. At least, a lot has been talked about.