Crime and Punishment System Problems, Queries and Suggestions

Age : 29 Posts : 4301

Opening up a thread for the new system in case any of you have complaints, questions or suggestions regarding the Crime and Punishment System. Let's try and keep it as professional as possible pls.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

I'd like to see breaking out of prison(or breaking someone else out) to be worked in with rules similar to breaking into a village applied. Of course attempting a jail break and failing would increase jail time and security on that prisoner making future attempts less likely.

Other than that, I don't feel like this is really missing anything else. Good job! *nice guy pose*

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Boy do I have a lot of critiques on this new system.

Punishments

I'm wondering why capital crimes like murder and treason have such soft penalties. Am I to believe that the village would release a convicted murderer within a month of their crime (if we extrapolate OOC time into IC time, that's about how much it translates to)? I also don't exactly understand the need for an OOC punishment. That only serves to lower the person's activity, which is basically the opposite of what an RPing forum is supposed to accomplish. This also hampers other people who happen to have started an RP with the convict prior to their capture, as they can't continue the topic for another X amount of days until they get out of jail. You're basically punishing the person RPing the convict, and anyone else they happen to be RPing with for a crime that none of these people committed. Remember, we are not our characters, we shouldn't be punished for their actions. A father wouldn't go to jail if his 15 year old son shot someone. His son would.

Note: I'm not entirely sure how this system works in the OOC sense, since there appear to be some contradictions. It's not very clear whether the character remains in jail after their OOC time, or is released after that period. I mention this because it explicitly states in the system that one is not allowed to RP anywhere but inside the prison (unless they have previous topics to complete), but if they get released following their 7 day OCC ban, then this rule is completely pointless. Using simple logic, I'll go ahead and draw the conclusion that IC imprisonment lasts longer than the OOC punishment, which should be clarified somewhere. If my logic is wrong and this is not how it works, then see the previous paragraph about soft and irrelevant punishments.

Suggestion: Instead of punishing people OOC, why not just punish the character IC? From what I've read, this kind of exists already. They're not allowed to start RP's outside the confines of the prison. That's a pretty big punishment as it is. If you don't believe that's good enough, maybe add a "prisoners earn half as much EXP per topic made in jail" rule or something. Help represent how boring and dull prison life is.

"Pardons"

From what I've read, there are three ways to get out of jail: You do your time, the Kage gives you a pardon, or the kage releases you as a criminal (this one makes no god damn sense, but I'll get to it later). The first one makes sense, except that there's no real time set for how long one stays in jail IC. Of course, the Kage is the one who administers the punishment, so they can decide how long the character has to serve jail time. The second one also makes sense, and I have no complaints about that. It makes the most logical sense. The third one on the other hand.... Good God is it completely idiotic to even think about. Okay, so, bear with me here. The Kage of the village sees your character as a reasonable threat that could cause great destruction upon the world. The Kage of your village then decides to RELEASE THIS DANGEROUS CRIMINAL INTO THE WORLD. W-why..? The whole point of Nukenin to exist is that ninja are trying to capture and or kill them as a punishment for their crimes. What sort of rhyme or reason is there to release a criminal you intend to catch later. I'm pretty sure the elders of the village would not want to play fox hunt with a known criminal. Instead, they'd just keep him locked up forever.

Suggestion: Remove that third method entirely. It makes no sense. We shouldn't have rules on this forum that contradict common sense. Instead, open up the idea of potential jailbreaks and provide a vague set of rules for how one must go about breaking out of jail. Then, and only then, should they be marked as a Nukenin according to their rank. Additionally I propose adding "paroles" to first-time offenders or accidental crimes. I understand that it's entirely up to the Kage how they punish their criminals, but if there is no Kage like in Kumo, then the staff will probably be the one punishing the member according to the site rules (seeing as there are no village laws without a Kage).

Inconsistencies

The following are a small list of nitpicks:

List of Laws wrote:

Murder
1. Committing of murder to an innocent civilian.
2. Committing of murder to an innocent shinobi.

Punishment List wrote:

Murder
1. Seven Out Of Character days in a prison.
2. Ten Out Of Character days in a prison.
3. Three Out Of Character days in a prison.

What is the third punishment of murder for? There are only 2 laws for murder, but three punishments. This is kind of confusing. Also a slightly unrelated question: why is the punishment higher for killing a shinobi than for killing a civilian? Surely civilian deaths are more serious.

Crime and Punishment stacking: How are you supposed to contact your Kage to lower your sentence if you're not allowed to RP for the duration of your OOC punishment? Are you supposed to contact them OOC? If so, this should probably be mentioned somewhere. And what if the village has no Kage like Kumo? Who should one contact then?

Punishments 2nd paragraph wrote:: Each punishment number within each separate category correlates with the above list of Universal Laws and as such, if a member were to commit Theft Crime Two, they would receive the punishment of five Out Of Character days in a prison.

What is "Theft Crime Two"?

Catching & Killing a Criminal: What's a D-rank Criminal? This question also applies to the US Systems. As far as I know, C-rank is the lowest playable rank on the site.

I believe that's it. Carry on.

Age : 29 Posts : 4301

Mugen:

Uros:

Punishments

outside

Pardons

indefinite imprisonment

Inconsistencies

Crime and Punishment System Problems, Queries and Suggestions 287405

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

What Enzo was trying to say I think is that if your punishment lasts only 7 or so days, it's not enough to finish a topic (maybe a solo) so most people will just wait out the 7 days without roleplaying at all.

I also agree that outcasting seems rather counterproductive. The current way of becoming a nukenin is to risk your life by trying to escape/fight your way out of the village. However this system would make becoming nukenin much safer and render genuine escapes pointless.

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Chris wrote:: I also agree that outcasting seems rather counterproductive. The current way of becoming a nukenin is to risk your life by trying to escape/fight your way out of the village. However this system would make becoming nukenin much safer and render genuine escapes pointless.

On the other hand, it wouldn't portray a nation like Konohagakure in a positive light who has a reputation for being a righteous nation to have somebody serve a sentence for massacring a dozen or so civilians and then have them continue to live normally within the village.

Posts : 1729

Enzo wrote:: The Kage of the village sees your character as a reasonable threat that could cause great destruction upon the world. The Kage of your village then decides to RELEASE THIS DANGEROUS CRIMINAL INTO THE WORLD. W-why..? The whole point of Nukenin to exist is that ninja are trying to capture and or kill them as a punishment for their crimes. What sort of rhyme or reason is there to release a criminal you intend to catch later.

Presenting: Itachi Uchiha. Murdered his entire clan, used the street cred as a cover to infiltrate a criminal organization for the sake of his village.

Here's the bigger question; how is someone going to catch and gather evidence of someone committing a crime, if, logically speaking, no one will even know a crime was committed unless they take the time to in-depth read every topic, and proceed to insert their character? Seems to me the only way you could get caught committing a crime is if you committed it while in RP with another character.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Adam wrote:

Chris wrote:: I also agree that outcasting seems rather counterproductive. The current way of becoming a nukenin is to risk your life by trying to escape/fight your way out of the village. However this system would make becoming nukenin much safer and render genuine escapes pointless.

On the other hand, it wouldn't portray a nation like Konohagakure in a positive light who has a reputation for being a righteous nation to have somebody serve a sentence for massacring a dozen or so civilians and then have them continue to live normally within the village.

You're right. It's far more reasonable that rather than deal with this menace personally, they tell him to go and mess with everyone (i.e kill people) outside of Konoha :/

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Chris wrote:

Adam wrote:

Chris wrote:: I also agree that outcasting seems rather counterproductive. The current way of becoming a nukenin is to risk your life by trying to escape/fight your way out of the village. However this system would make becoming nukenin much safer and render genuine escapes pointless.

On the other hand, it wouldn't portray a nation like Konohagakure in a positive light who has a reputation for being a righteous nation to have somebody serve a sentence for massacring a dozen or so civilians and then have them continue to live normally within the village.

You're right. It's far more reasonable that rather than deal with this menace personally, they tell him to go and mess with everyone (i.e kill people) outside of Konoha :/

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Who is Konoha to stop a Kiri nin in the making?

#YOLO

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Adam wrote:

Chris wrote:

Adam wrote:

Chris wrote:: I also agree that outcasting seems rather counterproductive. The current way of becoming a nukenin is to risk your life by trying to escape/fight your way out of the village. However this system would make becoming nukenin much safer and render genuine escapes pointless.

On the other hand, it wouldn't portray a nation like Konohagakure in a positive light who has a reputation for being a righteous nation to have somebody serve a sentence for massacring a dozen or so civilians and then have them continue to live normally within the village.

You're right. It's far more reasonable that rather than deal with this menace personally, they tell him to go and mess with everyone (i.e kill people) outside of Konoha :/

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Who is Konoha to stop a Kiri nin in the making?

#YOLO

Lol'd.

That said, I do think that, with all of the villages being visible for everyone and people being able to post in it, the rules for Missing Nin need to be revised as well, seeing as no one will have to ask a Kage for permission to enter anymore. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to see a few changes made here.

BK-201 wrote:

Enzo wrote:: The Kage of the village sees your character as a reasonable threat that could cause great destruction upon the world. The Kage of your village then decides to RELEASE THIS DANGEROUS CRIMINAL INTO THE WORLD. W-why..? The whole point of Nukenin to exist is that ninja are trying to capture and or kill them as a punishment for their crimes. What sort of rhyme or reason is there to release a criminal you intend to catch later.

Presenting: Itachi Uchiha. Murdered his entire clan, used the street cred as a cover to infiltrate a criminal organization for the sake of his village.

Here's the bigger question; how is someone going to catch and gather evidence of someone committing a crime, if, logically speaking, no one will even know a crime was committed unless they take the time to in-depth read every topic, and proceed to insert their character? Seems to me the only way you could get caught committing a crime is if you committed it while in RP with another character.

I figure that this is the reason why we have a Protective Service Ninja and an ANBU Black Ops group in the villages. For all intents and purposes, a member of the PSN basically knows who comes in and out of the village, making it easier to narrow things down when problems happen. This goes both ways, seeing as when people would try to run away, they'd be the first to know about it, while people can also use the SC's for this kind of deal. With PSN and Black Ops working together, I imagine any crime COULD be figured out and lead to the person causing all of it to get punished for it.

Additionally, the International Spy Network and the Animal Speak SC's would be able to help in uncovering things like... I dunno, having a bird fly by, see shit and tell the owner of the SC about what it's seen, or have some NPC spy person notice shit and report it back to the owner of the SC, which technically speaking would not be Metagaming, considering the fact that this is pretty much what these SC seem to be good for. All it takes is a bit of creativity to get this kind of thing going, because every village is supposedly guarded by shinobi already, these being members of the ANBU and PSN.

So really, all it takes is that the ANBU and PSN work together, using their own skills to figure out the crime, use their skills to find out who did it, locate the culprit and bring him or her to justice.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

I'm not sure how "a bird told me this" stands up in court. For one, most Shinobi can't speak to animals and for another, not sure how able you would be to find that same exact bird and get him to appear before a panel of judges xD

Dem birds have worms to catch, son!

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Chris wrote:: I'm not sure how "a bird told me this" stands up in court. For one, most Shinobi can't speak to animals and for another, not sure how able you would be to find that same exact bird and get him to appear before a panel of judges xD

Dem birds have worms to catch, son!

Trust me, if you threaten to shatter his nest and cook his wife, that bastard will drop those damn worms and show up an hour early >_>

Posts : 1729

Spectre wrote:: I dunno, having a bird fly by, see shit and tell the owner of the SC about what it's seen, or have some NPC spy person notice shit and report it back to the owner of the SC, which technically speaking would not be Metagaming,

That.... That is.... Completely. Totally. Metagaming. Oh, and did you see the part where those were SOCIAL SCs? Meaning they're not supposed to have combative applications? Meaning their fecking use is to add extra flavor and spice to your character!? Crime and Punishment System Problems, Queries and Suggestions 287405

Freaking everything has to be a combat ability to you people, I swear.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

BK-201 wrote:

Spectre wrote:: I dunno, having a bird fly by, see shit and tell the owner of the SC about what it's seen, or have some NPC spy person notice shit and report it back to the owner of the SC, which technically speaking would not be Metagaming,

That.... That is.... Completely. Totally. Metagaming. Oh, and did you see the part where those were SOCIAL SCs? Meaning they're not supposed to have combative applications? Meaning their fecking use is to add extra flavor and spice to your character!? :O:Freaking everything has to be a combat ability to you people, I swear.

Exactly when did I say those birds and Spies would go about fighting themselves? They are picking up and returning information, which in my book is not a form of combat that is actually closest to a social thread, at least up to the point where people will get in there and break faces. Just saying, what else IS the point of having an A ranked SC about freakin' spies when all you can do is talk to them and have tea with them when you visit another village. Has to be the most useful A ranked SC ever made on US.

Posts : 1729

Vergil, I really would have made those spies useful if I could have, but the only way I could get the SC past Adamn was the specific provision that you needed OOC permission to metagame knowledge about PCs. Suffice to say, its "use" as an SC is mostly the bragging rights of being the head of an international spy ring.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

BK-201 wrote:: Vergil, I really would have made those spies useful if I could have, but the only way I could get the SC past Adamn was the specific provision that you needed OOC permission to metagame knowledge about PCs. Suffice to say, its "use" as an SC is mostly the bragging rights of being the head of an international spy ring.

Such a shame.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Seeing as we kinda have inactive kages..
>.>
Shouldn't this system wait to be added when we have decent activity from -all- kages? Meh. I was excited to see it, but then it just took down the activity that I could use. OOC days? That kills muse, man. Meh. I mean, if you want to make people stop posting this is the right way to go about it. e.e

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Cookie Monster wrote:: So you're advocating for longer punishments? Because that's something I actually thought about doing, however I doubt members would want to remain in prison for a full OOC month. Instead the sentences presented hold a lasting period but also one that doesn't create strenuous restriction with the outside world. If the prisoner is involved with a topic beforehand, then they're able to carry on and finish the topic. It states that in the System. The only thing they can't do is create new topics outside of the prison until their sentence has been carried out or they break free from the prison. So the whole argument of punishing the other roleplayers isn't exactly credible. Your suggestion sounds more limiting and damaging than the current punishment in place. If I was a prisoner, I wouldn't want to create a single topic knowing that my points are being severely reduced once it's complete. Depending on the sentence all a person has to do is roleplay within a prison for x amount of days. Not exactly a massive burden on the roleplayer.

My apologies, I misread the system. I was under the implication that "seven ooc days in prison" translated to "can't RP for seven ooc days". Either way, I still feel that seven OOC days in prison is too short for slaughtering a civilian. It gives you enough time to do maybe a couple posts in prison, and you can still finish whatever topics you're in already. So really, it's not even a punishment. Just a minor inconvenience that you probably wouldn't even notice in the long term. The worst that would happen is getting demoted from your current rank. But honestly, if you're a Genin, getting demoted isn't even a threat to you. Of course I can see this becoming a nuisance if you tortured and killed, a state official for instance. That's like what, 28 days in jail? I can understand why you might think that's a long time... but that's not even a third of an IC year. For a crime that would be capital in most countries in the world. Honestly, if someone whent as far as to torture and assassinate someone important, they deserve to stay in jail forever. I understand that it may "deter fighting", but in such severe cases, the criminal is basically asking to become a Nukenin. Which leads to the next point:

Cookie Monster wrote:: The third pardon was something I was conflicted with myself. An idea I was originally going to use would be to have an indefinite imprisonment, where there is no site time in how long a prisoner must remain within the prison. Yet this in itself is incredibly limiting, especially given there will be no end date to their sentence. Seeing as a death sentence would never be introduced onto the forum, as that would render nearly all two battle topics we have on this forum pointless, we instead introduced the Outcast Pardon. The purpose of the pardon is so that a person actually serves a sentence, but is also given a severe punishment by becoming a village outcast. It allows them to roleplay freely and presents a new storyline for their character.

Well, if they're locked up forever, they only have two options: To either do absolutely nothing and potentially archive their character; or to break out of jail and receive a Nukenin mark. Most characters that would receive a life sentence would want to become Nukenin. In fact, someone who commits a clusterfuck of crimes in front of a hundred witnesses will probably attempt to flee the village before the hand-cuffs are even slapped on their wrists.

Remember how Itachi slaughtered like a hundred people? What did he do then? Did he just sit around and wait to get caught? No, he fled. He fled the village and became a Nukenin. He didn't get caught and then released back into the world on Kage's orders. If he had gotten caught, I highly doubt the idea of releasing him would even cross their minds. So what if he was a ninja prodigy and the leader of the ANBU; he committed an enormous crime. Not even the best defense attorney could help him in that case.

My point is, if someone gets caught for committing a crime on the scale of itachi, or even a lesser crime than that, life-in-jail should be the punishment. Keep in mind though: anyone with half a brain would leave the village before they got caught.

Oh and uh... what about if a Nukenin is captured? He's captured, sentenced to jail, then he's let free again into the world...? A Nukenin who did crimes that would normally sentence him to death, gets to run free in a few months and create more chaos and havoc. I'm not sure how that's supposed to make sense.

Age : 29 Posts : 4301

Uros wrote:: My apologies, I misread the system. I was under the implication that "seven ooc days in prison" translated to "can't RP for seven ooc days". Either way, I still feel that seven OOC days in prison is too short for slaughtering a civilian. It gives you enough time to do maybe a couple posts in prison, and you can still finish whatever topics you're in already. So really, it's not even a punishment. Just a minor inconvenience that you probably wouldn't even notice in the long term. The worst that would happen is getting demoted from your current rank. But honestly, if you're a Genin, getting demoted isn't even a threat to you. Of course I can see this becoming a nuisance if you tortured and killed, a state official for instance. That's like what, 28 days in jail? I can understand why you might think that's a long time... but that's not even a third of an IC year. For a crime that would be capital in most countries in the world. Honestly, if someone whent as far as to torture and assassinate someone important, they deserve to stay in jail forever. I understand that it may "deter fighting", but in such severe cases, the criminal is basically asking to become a Nukenin.

There's nothing for me to argue here really. The punishments are rather short when taking into account how long it may take for a single topic to be completed, so I'll be revising the amount of days each punishments delivers and report back once the Staff have come to an agreement with them.

Uros wrote:: Well, if they're locked up forever, they only have two options: To either do absolutely nothing and potentially archive their character; or to break out of jail and receive a Nukenin mark. Most characters that would receive a life sentence would want to become Nukenin. In fact, someone who commits a clusterfuck of crimes in front of a hundred witnesses will probably attempt to flee the village before the hand-cuffs are even slapped on their wrists. Remember how Itachi slaughtered like a hundred people? What did he do then? Did he just sit around and wait to get caught? No, he fled. He fled the village and became a Nukenin. He didn't get caught and then released back into the world on Kage's orders. If he had gotten caught, I highly doubt the idea of releasing him would even cross their minds. So what if he was a ninja prodigy and the leader of the ANBU; he committed an enormous crime. Not even the best defense attorney could help him in that case. My point is, if someone gets caught for committing a crime on the scale of itachi, or even a lesser crime than that, life-in-jail should be the punishment. Keep in mind though: anyone with half a brain would leave the village before they got caught.

You've raised valid points and also managed to sway my opinion on the third pardon issue. So I'll be bringing such an amendment up within the Staff Lounge and come up with a verdict within the first week of March. Hopefully I'm not doing any wishful thinking there. The proposal will be for Life Imprisonment to be made an option only if 'x' amount of days has been reached through a single or collective amount of crimes. A crime could collect thirty days OOC in prison and this would result in a life imprisonment, for example. As for repeat offenders or the capturing of a Nukenin, it may depend on the severity of their crime and rank on what punishment they are handed. Perhaps a B - Rank criminal and below may receive the set amount of days punishment, provided they don't breach the life imprisonment limit, while an A - Rank criminal and above will automatically receive the life imprisonment. Again, will report back on this once discussions with the Staff have concluded.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Cookie Monster wrote:: There's nothing for me to argue here really. The punishments are rather short when taking into account how long it may take for a single topic to be completed, so I'll be revising the amount of days each punishments delivers and report back once the Staff have come to an agreement with them.

Wonderful. Perhaps to alleviate some of the boredom for the member who has their character imprisoned for long periods of time, the option to do SC training and/or flashback topics while incarcerated would be permitted? I can see this being abused somewhat (e.g. Doing a flashback topic with someone you've never RP'd before, then in the next topic having them help you break out of jail), but it's just a suggestion.

Cookie Monster wrote:: You've raised valid points and also managed to sway my opinion on the third pardon issue. So I'll be bringing such an amendment up within the Staff Lounge and come up with a verdict within the first week of March. Hopefully I'm not doing any wishful thinking there. The proposal will be for Life Imprisonment to be made an option only if 'x' amount of days has been reached through a single or collective amount of crimes. A crime could collect thirty days OOC in prison and this would result in a life imprisonment, for example. As for repeat offenders or the capturing of a Nukenin, it may depend on the severity of their crime and rank on what punishment they are handed. Perhaps a B - Rank criminal and below may receive the set amount of days punishment, provided they don't breach the life imprisonment limit, while an A - Rank criminal and above will automatically receive the life imprisonment. Again, will report back on this once discussions with the Staff have concluded.

:PI don't know whether to feel honored or worried that I managed to sway your opinion. You haven't lost your mind have you?

Either way, I do like your suggestion of a life sentence upon reaching a quota of crimes and the Nukenin solution. What would happen to the lower ranked nukenin though? Would that be left to the Kages to decide, or would they be released like a village ninja, except kicked out of the village instead of left to stick around. Or maybe they could have the option to be integrated into the village (e.g. a B-rank Nukenin becoming a Konoha-nin) if they so wish. Idk, you're the staff. Figure it out Crime and Punishment System Problems, Queries and Suggestions 287405

Posts : 1729

Just saying, but outside the life-sentencing thing, the only way to make the punishment for crimes take up any "significant" IC time would require, at a bare minimum, three MONTHS of OOC time. Cus, ya know, 3 OOC months to an IC year.

Age : 29 Posts : 4301

System has finally been updated, took a lot longer than expected. Changes that have been made are increased punishment times, with a total increase of fifty percent their original sentence, the addition of Indefinite Imprisonment and Death Penalty and lastly, the removal of the third pardon. Let the hater's recommence hating!

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Solved dough?