Summon stuff... again

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Simple question.

"What does an S ranked summon the size of a human get to balance out the regularly massive size of other summons at S rank?"

Note: This goes for all sizes above C to be honest.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

Nothing? The size of the summon is up to the person creating it, so if they want them to be "small", they're not going to get anything extra for making that choice. They're still going to have all the same limitations.

Edit: Besides, sometimes being small can be used to one's advantage.

Age : 31 Posts : 1036

A small summon does not really mean weaker than a large summon. After all they are both S ranks and are at that rank for a reason.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

Strange Ace wrote:: A small summon does not really mean weaker than a large summon. After all they are both S ranks and are at that rank for a reason.

This. ^

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

You say that, though a humongous turtle can just crush a small dog, regardless of rank. That's what the whole Weight thing is for. Size means a lot, and it kind of makes smaller summons useless.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

TwinnyPuppy wrote:: Nothing? The size of the summon is up to the person creating it, so if they want them to be "small", they're not going to get anything extra for making that choice. They're still going to have all the same limitations.

Edit: Besides, sometimes being small can be used to one's advantage.

Being small has pros and cons, as does being large. You're not going to send a humongous turtle on a recon mission because it'll be spotted rather easily and could compromise the secrecy. The small dog would be a much better fit. That doesn't mean it's weaker, it means its strengths lie in different areas than that of the turtle.

Age : 31 Posts : 1036

Well if you see it that way...why not just make a gigantic summon? O.o

Age : 34 Posts : 1209

Honestly I don't think there's a hard and fast rule here, Vergil. Your best bet is to make an S ranked summon and give it when you think to be fair and work with the creation mod who mods it to make sure it's all in check. No one's going to be able to give you a definite answer on what you should get as compensation for choosing a smaller summon. If you were hoping that you'd get more jutsu, or a larger chakra pool or something like that then that's definitely not going to happen. But perhaps physical stats can be tweaked, for instance an S rank summon that is human sized having a great deal of strength or something of the like.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

TOPKite wrote:: Honestly I don't think there's a hard and fast rule here, Vergil. Your best bet is to make an S ranked summon and give it when you think to be fair and work with the creation mod who mods it to make sure it's all in check. No one's going to be able to give you a definite answer on what you should get as compensation for choosing a smaller summon. If you were hoping that you'd get more jutsu, or a larger chakra pool or something like that then that's definitely not going to happen. But perhaps physical stats can be tweaked, for instance an S rank summon that is human sized having a great deal of strength or something of the like.

That was more or less what I was hoping for, though I do not know how that much could be achieved, seeing as mere description is often overlooked or simply not heeded/respected. If such a thing is done, the best way would be to include it in some sort of SC for the summon. Just a thought though.

Age : 34 Posts : 1209

Hiruzen wrote:

TOPKite wrote:: Honestly I don't think there's a hard and fast rule here, Vergil. Your best bet is to make an S ranked summon and give it when you think to be fair and work with the creation mod who mods it to make sure it's all in check. No one's going to be able to give you a definite answer on what you should get as compensation for choosing a smaller summon. If you were hoping that you'd get more jutsu, or a larger chakra pool or something like that then that's definitely not going to happen. But perhaps physical stats can be tweaked, for instance an S rank summon that is human sized having a great deal of strength or something of the like.

That was more or less what I was hoping for, though I do not know how that much could be achieved, seeing as mere description is often overlooked or simply not heeded/respected. If such a thing is done, the best way would be to include it in some sort of SC for the summon. Just a thought though.

Nah, what you do is when you summon your things in battle you put your summon in a spoiler tag under your post as you would a jutsu. The description of everything your summon is and can do should be included in the summon section of your character sheet. If someone chooses not to read the description that's too bad for them, it doesn't make what your summon can do any less valid.

Posts : 1729

Large, building sized summon

Pros

Powerful
Large size allows for devastating attacks without even using jutsu
Also hard to kill, as large size makes it harder to reach vital areas

Cons

"Slow;" while an S-rank summon might move at the same speed as an average S-rank ninja, it also has MUCH more of itself to move. See: Difference between a fly, moving at a mere two miles per hour, and a full grown adult just walking at 2 miles per hour.
Maneuverability; coupled in with their slowness, their large size also makes it impossible to use them in any sort of enclosed area; large summons have to have a lot of wide open space, or else any summon attempt is gonna get ugly and messy.
While their vitals are harder to hit, they're also easier to hit in general; hard to miss a target the size of a house.

Smaller summons (normal animal size)

Pros

Can be utilized for more covert, stealth-opted tasks while still maintaining high rank jutsu for hitting power.
Can be summoned nearly anywhere, and without causing a big scene or drawing attention.
Far, far more agile.

Cons

Smaller size means they are infinitely easier to take down.
Most of their offensive capability is limited to their jutsu, which with summon chakra pools, means they have to be very conservative lest they quickly run out of energy for the fight.

Basically, there's no real reason to give people anything special for making a smaller summon. Large and small both have their own tactical advantages, and what you intend to do with them is completely at the discretion of the summoner.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

For once I think Im actually in agreement with Travis on this one.

Age : 34 Posts : 1209

To clarify: when I said a human sized summon having a great deal of strength I meant that an S rank summon should have the option of having strength equal to an S rank shinobi with S ranked strength.

I do agree with Travis' post but as I said there's really been no hard and fast rule regarding summons and really the act of coming up with them would be a monumental task. I find that it's just better to approach them case by case and use past decisions as precedents. Work with the creation mod to figure out what is and is not appropriate for your summon's rank.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I am just going to go with that, seeing as Enma pretty much punched Hashirama/Tobirama through a wooden trunk with relative ease during the Hiruzen/Orochimaru fight. Thanks for all the ideas, thoughts and solutions guys.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Let's hold on a sec.

No one other than Kite said that a small S rank Summon should have strength equivalent to an S Ranked Shinobi with S Rank Strength. That's a horrible idea. And I'm afraid that's the idea you're going to listen to the most.

The reason why a large S Rank Summon is strong, is precisely because it is large. You can't just claim that your Summon is really strong in the description and then enforce that. Without an SC to back it up or actual size, and last I checked, Summons don't have SCs, it just isn't strong. This would especially be the case when the Summon's speciality isn't Taijutsu.

Like Travis said, you trade strength, endurance and general bulkiness for speed, agility, usability and stealth. Just because it's S Rank doesn't mean it's automatically physically strong. S Rank shinobi aren't automatically strong. Heck, they could be as slow and as weak as a Genin. They are S Rank because they have other strengths.

Your example shows a human-sized, Tai-Wep specialising Summon punching two shinobi who specialise in Ninjutsu. The situation is not in any way special nor does it back up Kite's point.

Age : 34 Posts : 1209

So after being brow beat on skype about how my words could be misconstrued by those who could potentially wish to "abuse the system" I was urged to clarify what I said in earlier posts. Here is my attempt to do so.

I still stand by what I said earlier that summons at S rank, that are of similar size to shinobi should have the option of having strength that is either close to or on par with the S rank SC. The reason I said to insert such a statement in the summon description was not in any way to try and outwit or hide this fact from the mods overseeing the creation's side of summoning. It was a way to have it clearly stated for any who fight your character that your summon is capable of using brute force since summons are not allowed SCs on this site. The point behind stating your summon's capabilities within the description is to keep the creation as transparent as possible. There should be no OOC surprises in regards to a summon's capabilities.

I do not think it outrageous to say that an S rank summon of smaller sizes could be that strong. This does not just apply to strength though. This could be in regards to speed or endurance or whatever. Like members though, the summon should only excel in one of these domains. The trade off for having massive strength would mean that the summon could not be as fast or durable (by this site's logic). Also, though I didn't think it needed to be mentioned, I was told that some might not make the connection between exceptional physical capabilities and a summon's chosen specialization.

Like Shinobi, if a summon doesn't specialize in any of the physical arts they will obviously be less developed physically and thus not reach the S rank tier of physical abilities. Now I know the mention of S rank anything is scary but when one looks at strength, though it is destructive, S rank is not at the level of what we've seen in the manga/anime for massive summons. Massive summons will always be inherently more destructive just from their sheer volume. As I said in an earlier post, I agree with Travis' list. He hit the nail on the head.

I'd like to just say that all that I said is my OPINION. It is not law. I am not staff. My words cannot and should not be used in any sort of defense against mods who disagree with anything I said. I'm not an authority by any means and in fact have never even had a character who used summons as I find the whole summoning system to be rather ridiculous and problematic. It seems that every month there is a new topic regarding summons and quite honestly they should just be removed or slotted into the forbidden jutsu list due to the potential for pure abuse.

Finally, I'd urge anyone (Vergil) who is making a summon to use some common sense and decency when forming their creation. A tiny kitten summon that is S ranked will not have S rank strength. No making small flying insects with bites that have the strength to tear off a limb. It's just stupid. Something human sized is about as small as I'd go and when I say "human sized" I mean something above 5 feet in height. For summons I'd actually say that it should be more around 6 to 7 feet tall to have strength on par to an S rank shinobi with the strength SC. Again, they'd need to be specialized in one of the physical disciplines.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I know Kite, i'm not retarded >_>

*Removes S ranked strength from Kitty summon*

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Can this be solved?

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Moved to In Progress Sub-Forum.