Reform [ Don't derail the topic]

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

So. I have a suggestion that I hope will hit a few sparks with people, some that I personally have dealt with in the past over the course of the two years I've spent here.

The eval system. Sure, it's different from many other sites, but in reality, it just takes the fun out of Rping and just focus on the 'writing and elitism' of the 'game.' Sure, quality posts are fun and interesting to read. Being a past eval mod, I NEVER went by the eval rules. I didn't pick at grammar, I didn't pick at spelling. I viewed it from the writers' perspective and see if they had fun and actually enjoyed the topic, and that's where I based my scores on.

To be blunt: the eval system is shitty. Just pure bullshit.

Why tell people that their threads are boring? Kill muse and just make them want to stop Rping? I've gotten PMs from people I've rp'd with, complaining about the evals, and saying "It bums me out from rping." multiple times. I've been on both fronts, and it's not the greatest thing to be apart of. I don't even know why it exists in the first place. This isn't school, guys.

Why should grades determine how well of an RP'er you are? Why the frick should we have people dumbing down RP's according to a system? We've probably lost people from having their evals ripped to shreds.

This is the ONLY site that does that. I heard ingoo had something similar, but Idek, I wasn't apart of that site.

The point is: Reform. Tear it down with a new system that many other sites use (and it's effective)

Have character sheets

Keep them updated constantly with buying jutsu/weapons whatever, and have staff approve them so that they can keep track of who has what. It sounds easier than it really is, but it's WAY better than an eval system. Does this mean that people should be given powerful things for putting out barely any work? Fuck no. Lol.

Once again, Evals kill muse, hype and other things with plot since people nick-pick the hell out of topics.

Just have fun, RP. Don't make it feel like school and a chore at the same time.

It could be a system to actually keep Ryo(worthless as it's been in the BB for years.) and maybe give new staff members something easy to do as checking out updates.

Sure, there might be needs to check threads and what not, but that's where the suggestions from the forum members THE BEATING HEART OF THE FORUM IN CASE STAFF FORGOT come in.

They can voice how they feel finally. Instead of just going on and ignoring a horrible system, I just got fed up from seeing a decent/amazing Rper get sick of rping on the site because of an eval.

Anyway.

Have at it.

Edit: Am I saying to get rid of the system overnight? Nah. Just work with people here instead of ignoring FA threads.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

I might not have created the system, but I've worked with it, so I'll tackle this.

I understand where you're coming from, but before I talk about your suggestion, I want to clarify a few things.

If you look at the way US is built, it's not meant to be a casual "I'm just gonna throw down some words and get places" type of forum. There are minimum word count requirements because the site is expecting a particular standard. If you were just expected to have fun and not care about how you spelled things or your grammar, then those types of standards would not exist.

Does this mean that poor spelling and grammar always equate to a bad RPer? No. What makes a good or great RPer is their ability to tell a story. For example, Ruka's English is definitely good, but there are still holes in her syntax that I will guess stem from a language barrier based on the order of her words sometimes. The same goes for Ace, but he does the best he can. They can still tell their story well enough. Nobody on this site is going to be perfect all the time (yes that includes me), and that's okay. You're not expected to be a god at writing. Nonetheless, the evaluation system works around the concept of telling people how to get better, NOT telling them they're bad - which is why the approach to evaluations is telling you how to fix what's wrong rather than just telling you that there are things wrong with your writing. If you take away that commentary system and just grant people points simply because they're writing, that introduces a lot of other problems (which I will talk about a bit further down).

Consequently, when it comes to the current evaluation system, you are graded on your ability to tell a story as well as spelling and grammar (to a minor extent - the point deductions from that come second to the actual content... at least, that's how it's supposed to be). While spelling and grammar don't always ruin the quality of the story-telling, too many issues will. If you really don't care about how well you communicate a story, then I'm sorry, but forum RPing is probably not your thing. If you're only writing for yourself in the sense that you honestly don't care how other people perceive the way you write, then it's not for you, either. I'm not saying this to put anybody down - you can write for whatever reasons you want - but this is almost like joining a book club and only wanting to read a single genre.

With regards to this issue people seem to have with the "entertainment" value that is looked at when grading, it's not quite as black and white as too many seem to think. It's one thing to write a topic that is entertaining/interesting but just not to a particular person's tastes, and another to write something that doesn't make any logical sense, and is consequently going to suffer in the entertainment department. If you tell your story well, it makes sense, isn't following the same patterns over and over, and shows creativity, and has substance, you will score better. If not, your score will be lower.

This is a forum where the character development doesn't just revolve around running around and hanging out with your friends. It's a Naruto RP, and yes, I know people aren't huge fans of a whole lot of combat, but that's an entirely other matter. Everything that people gain from the RPing is built on a system that anticipates combat, and that is why the modding on techniques and such is as strict as it is sometimes. Because of this, and because of the way characters gain power as they develop, your writing should, at least minimally, put forth effort that matches the power you're trying to gain. Before I get any of these types of responses, you have absolutely cannot justify arguments geared towards systems that are prepped for combat by saying you're only looking at them for RP flavor and not to run around fighting people. You don't need power if you don't intend to use it. If you try to argue that you only want this power to defend yourself, you're contradicting your stance about the site not being a combat site.

As for your suggestion, it's not really clear how you intend for it to work. Do the points come from posting in RP areas? Do you get a set value from finishing threads? That's not a fair system because of what I specified above - you could write about your trips to the store and gain the same amount of power as somebody that actively challenges themselves in writing and challenges their character as well. That's not balanced in the slightest, and is partially why we have MP separate from EXP. How would you explain somebody ranking their character up to Jounin without so much as catching a stray cat and only sitting at the ramen stand talking to their friends? You can't. Those that just relax and casually RP get their dues, but people that put in the work get what they deserve (which was the basis of the bonus points system that I introduced).

Lastly, I want to address this in a place that hopefully everybody will see:

IF YOUR EVALS ARE LITERALLY BEING RIPPED TO SHREDS, DON'T JUST SIT BACK AND SULK. TALK TO SOMEBODY ABOUT IT.

We already took action when we saw somebody was just tearing into people's self-esteem rather than giving them tips on improving, and as one of the people involved in that decision, I am ALWAYS here to set things straight. If you feel like you've been wronged by somebody else, or even by me, please TALK TO ME. I may not always seem to be trying to help, but I am. If I don't agree with something, I'm not going to turn it down as a personal attack or simply because I don't like it, I will take it into consideration and make a decision.

People very rarely come to me about whatever problems they have in the year+ that I've been staff, and just complaining to other members about how you feel you've been wronged is not going to make things better. It just builds resentment and forces a divide between the members and the staff that does not need to be there. At the same time, if you always go to the same person and nothing happens, talk to somebody else. The staff is supposed to work as a team, but sometimes that doesn't happen and if one person isn't communicating with the rest then it's impossible for any action to be taken against them. It's like getting frustrated with an employee because you KNOW they're in the wrong (they won't correct their behavior) and leaving the store rather than talking to the manager or supervisor (or whoever is around that should be able to address the issue).

I have been around long enough to see that this is a HUGE part of the reason that people end up as heated as they are when they make some Forum Assistance topics.

Yes, that's not completely on the subject of this topic, but it does play a part in it because of some of the reasons that were listed.

In any case, I stand by this evaluation system - yes, it's not going to be everybody's ideal, but it works with the way this particular site is meant to be run. If you still want to see a change, flesh out your idea and then bring it back. A vague concept isn't going to help make things change.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

I appreciate you taking your time to review the topic.

Now, I get where you are coming from, and I understood that the eval system is made for US, but doesn't it come off as elitist to a degree? I'm going to enclose a Pm (with the sender being Anon, but I guess it wouldn't take much to figure out who they are Nyan

) to show what evals can honestly do.

Spoiler:

The reason my idea was so vague was to get member input before really fleshing it out some. If they can add things that could really make a difference, it would start coming together fully. Again, I didn't mean for it to come out as a jounin just catching cats all day, or something. There would be limits they would have to do "Certain amount of S rank missions, A rank, social topics etc etc" It would be much more than that, but I understand that you're trying to help, but the eval system has caused multiple problems like you stated, yes? Has anyone tried to attempt to change it? Or at least suggest lesser passive-aggressive ways of saying "You suck. It's boring?"

I know you stand behind it because you've used it for too long, I don't blame you a bit at all. But there comes a time where change is needed (Even in the slightest of forms.)

I don't know if people have been on a site where first they make their app (With jutsu not being on the mandatory application) then they make a 'character update sheet' where they link their app, rank etc (Much like accounts) and keep up with their jutsus and buy their jutsus in the single thread. It's clean and can be organized by village just as easily as accounts.

For the points, I haven't really fleshed out anything to make something as easy as MP/EXP. They could stay for all we know and just keep that aspect. Now, I'm not saying to drop the 'fix the grammar' thing and helpful tips, as it does improve writing, but change up how you do it. Don't be like "I wasn't interested in this topic at all." or "The lack of blah blah bored me." "It was unrealistic." The last one bothers me to an extent I can't explain in this post lol. It's rp in a ninja world. It's not going to realistic at all.

I'm not meaning to come up in here and request it to be changed immediately, or even think this is going to get looked at and took seriously. Lol. I've just seen, and have been told things that are disheartening to hear from people who have potential to change the site and actually flush out characters that are amazing.

Quote :: Nonetheless, the evaluation system works around the concept of telling people how to get better, NOT telling them they're bad - which is why the approach to evaluations is telling you how to fix what's wrong rather than just telling you that there are things wrong with your writing.

It's the passive-aggressiveness that remains in some words. There could be subtle hints of 'I'm just bored reading this.' in the nicest way possible in some evals. I get where you're coming from, but as you said again. It's been an issue for a bit.

I know I'm not the only one that is kind of against the eval system. I'm just waiting for them to post here. Lol. I'll try to flesh out more of a system before I reply here again, but again. I appreciate you replying and reminding members to come to you if they feel like evals are getting torn to pieces.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

Quote :: I know you stand behind it because you've used it for too long, I don't blame you a bit at all. But there comes a time where change is needed (Even in the slightest of forms.)

I'm sure it could easily come off that way, but I have RPed on sites with different systems, including one where you got points per post. It worked for that site because of the nature of it and the way the points were spent. I'm open to considering alternatives if they're clear and really explain what it is you want to get out of it. I just feel that of the methods I've seen, the current system is the best for the site right now.

I do appreciate that you already started thinking about an alternative and wanted some input, but I think the best way to do that would be to have a solid structure, even if it's missing details, and bring it to the table. It's hard to sell a product if you just have the name and a few examples of things you might be able to do with it.

As for the passive-aggressiveness, I feel like that circles around to what I said about talking to staff about the issue. I always strive to word things in a way that doesn't come off as passive-aggressive, but if I mess up, I want/expect people to come to me and say, "Hey, I didn't appreciate __________," because I might not realize it otherwise. I know the other two that have been tackling evaluations recently feel the same way - if you come to us and ask us to elaborate, ask to discuss something, or just want to point out something you don't think is right, we're going to listen. I know that Yosh can be a bit scary to approach, but he's not a bad guy. He wants to fix things on the site and knows how to look from a member's point of view since he's only recently been added to staff.

(It's 3:34 AM and I need sleep so I probably won't reply again for several hours.)

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I'll be completely honest, only one person killed my muse with her grading of my writing, and she is no longer a member of staff.

Truth be told, I think the grading here, while it may be harsh at times is pretty fair. English is not my first, second or third language, so I will take any help I can get if it means improving on my grammar and stuff along those lines. I don't think people are being mean with grading now that Shewhoshallnotbenamed is no longer with us, so yeah, this is just what I think about it personally.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Since people outside of the topic are getting pissed and think it's all about them from what I mentioned here. Please delete the topic.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Lets make a topic and abandon it before it yields any productive or definitive results... okay. Solved.

Age : 31 Posts : 1900

Unsolved and reopened for discussion, as requested. Feel free to comment.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Solved due to thread inactivity.