Stealth

Age : 32 Posts : 787

I agree that while using chakra, that part of the stealth SC goes out the window. I would also go so far to say that even using a miniscule technqiue like henge would in fact reveal your chakra signiture even if you were using this stealth SC A sensor would be able to tell that henge was occuring and this would arouse suspicion. It would be better to slip in with out any henge at all with a simple costume. I do not believe that Faker utilized the best technique to infiltrate.

That being said I also see no fault with what he did either. The fault lies not with the SC itself. The SC embodies exactly what an assassin who relies on his stealth to be able to do perfectly. These are eleite shinobi we are talking about. I feel like the plethora of S rank god shit that Kishimoto has shoved down our face we fail to appreciate the A rank level anymore.

The fault I see is with the system or lack there of. There is no set criteria for entering a village. There is no detail given on each individual villages defenses to let people know what they are dealing with. If anything was exposed it was the fact that at current, villages are pretty well at the whim of we writers to manipulate what those defenses are because no one has detailed what is protecting their village. Its the same as if we are in a one on one fight. If you leave out a detail I will take control of it, take advantage of and exploit it, and use it to my own end.

This is a task that should fall on the Kage's and should be reviewed with each new kage. It seems on this site that more ofen then not Kage just take the title to have the title and the "strongest shinobi." I've seena serious lack of leadership and direction presented by the members who take on that mantle. The most Ive seen are activity checks and an attempt to make teams. Above and beyond the fact that villages are entirely vulnerable Id like to say that I think we need to up the standardd to qualify you as a Kage.

In short it is the lack of dedication to the details that has created this "issue." You can't fault Faker for that. Like I said, I dont think his methodology was the best out there but in short, it works because there is no construct for him to work with so he had to create his own.

Posts : 757

Ok, so I can take from your response and the initial gist from everyone else, henge needs to be reworked.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Transformation_Technique

Should we include both variants? We've got one that requires constant emission and one that doesn't. What seems fair and balanced? I think we should redo the description to match the canon, and make it a 1 cost, 1 per post cost jutsu.

The other one is way super complicated, but if people think it should be available, lets do it.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Faker wrote:: Ok, so I can take from your response and the initial gist from everyone else, henge needs to be reworked.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Transformation_Technique

Should we include both variants? We've got one that requires constant emission and one that doesn't. What seems fair and balanced? I think we should redo the description to match the canon, and make it a 1 cost, 1 per post cost jutsu.

The other one is way super complicated, but if people think it should be available, lets do it.

Transformation has always been a bit of a tricky thing. While it is easy to dispel and all, you can just transform into something you imagine like... a werewolf and use your new claws to actually cut into someone. While it won't increase your physical strength, you'll still have claws and shit to tear people up with as shown when Naruto turned Gamabunta into Kurama and bit into Shukaku with it's jaws.

Aside from that strange thing, I would say that it would need an upkeep to go with it. After all, it is pretty much the only jutsu that can pretty much last indefinitely until the user dispels it or takes damage as it is now.

Posts : 757

Sweet, I'm glad we were able to come to an agreement

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Faker wrote:

Yeah Daedalus, but the henge is a 1 time deal on US (it doesnt have a per post cost). So I follow US rules when I think about how I play my character. According to US rules, it's possible to use such a simple technique and then go stealth after it, since it doesn't have a per post count, which means it's not channel.

Plus the Konoha Barrier Corps never said anything about sensing chakra, it's more like they 'see' anyone coming inside of it.

So even if we use the barrier from the manga, you don't even need stealth to get in.

The discussion I want to bring is,

1. What are/should be village defenses?
2. And how stealth needs to be rebalanced, if it is viewed as a global problem.

I should've said that in the intital post but I wanted the 'otherside' to lay out their points. Pls dont take that offensively.

Spoiler:

I personally believe people should do what I did. Make a small team of three to five NPC of B rank that act as the Gate Guards. That way, invading people will know who they are dealing with and the village will have something tangible standing between an invader and the village itself. For Plot and Coolness, I believe these should be people using a clan from that village [Like Kousen for Kumogakure, Hyuuga for Konoha, etc etc] while also using Encyclopedia jutsu, Village Only jutsu and using things that make their village special either in terms of combat dynamics, weaponry, looks etc etc. Think along the lines of Kiri having their swordsmen, using Senbon and things along that line to make them more than just your generic batch of rag-tag shinobi.

As for the defenses, I believe that the defense Konoha has which is called the Sensing System Technique casts a dome around the village that leaves a ripple whenever someone enters. The bigger the chakra, the bigger the ripple [Due to the sphere of water used as means of sensory]. When someone enters the village, they become little shiny dots that, depending on their chakra can become bigger the more they put out. This allows people to intervene when jutsu are being cast so people can send in Black Ops or whatever to check it out and take care of the problem. I know the Konoha system was a very special one as it was used during the war in the Anime/Canon and caught people like Pain/Nagato, and he could use his Rinnegan to actually see the damn thing, which is why I think it should be a bit harder to just bypass one of the worlds best barriers.

As for Stealth being balanced, I don't think people with stealth should be capable of making themselves invisible to barriers or sensory without them actually having Sensory as an SC. Sensory was already given a weakening blow, so making people with stealth completely nullify it seems like overkill. Stealth should be silent movement, being capable of moving unseen in the shadows and making it hard for people to notice them until it is too late. It should not make them invisible to sensors, though that is just how I see it.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

The reason that stealth allows a person to be hidden by sensory is because it has chakra suppression built into the A-rank version (not the C-rank version). If you required somebody to have sensory at the same time, it would be a one or the other type deal, though, because while suppressing your chakra you can't be actively sensing. It's not overkill overall and I don't think it should be removed. While thinking about a response to this I considered making chakra suppression in an S-ranked variant, but that's much too strict of a ranking for something like that.

We could make it a jutsu. A chakra suppression technique. But that would all depend on the other responses. Majority typically rules, so unless enough people back the change then it'll have to stay as is.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

TwinnyPuppy wrote:: We could make it a jutsu. A chakra suppression technique.

Allow me to say that I do not find your suggestion very optional.

Considering a technique requires the user to utilize at least some chakra from their pool, a technique that uses chakra, or molds it, in order to suppress said chakra, sounds a bit odd and doesn't really make sense to me. A sensor can detect and pick up chakra activity, either passive or active, which means that they are capable of sensing a high level technique (I assume it couldn't be lower than A or B rank) while it's being cast, which means a form of active chakra.

A chakra concealing jutsu would manifest the flow of its chakra, thus rendering this kind of ability counter-intuitive.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

While you are both correct, I see it as a better alternative than just voiding anything involving sensory free of charge for no reason other than "It's in the description". Stealth should be about stealth in the general sense, not about being capable of ignoring all things sensory.

Posts : 1729

Hiruzen wrote:: While you are both correct, I see it as a better alternative than just voiding anything involving sensory free of charge for no reason other than "It's in the description". Stealth should be about stealth in the general sense, not about being capable of ignoring all things sensory.

Vergil, a ninja with their chakra suppressed is only as invisible to a Sensor Nin as they already are to everyone else. Status Quo normal, as it were.

Also, we are a seriou RP site, not a Lemonade stand. Get that Comic Sans bullshit outta here Stealth - Page 2 287405

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

Hiruzen wrote:: While you are both correct, I see it as a better alternative than just voiding anything involving sensory free of charge for no reason other than "It's in the description". Stealth should be about stealth in the general sense, not about being capable of ignoring all things sensory.

I wouldn't say it's free of charge, necessarily. The drawback to maintaining suppressed chakra is that you can't utilize chakra (though I'd argue that water walking and tree climbing could be exempt because they're so minimal). The moment you do anything involving the use of chakra, the suppression stops and a sensor can find you. That means if you're a stealthy nin/weap user, for example, if you use any weaponry techniques that use chakra, your position is instantly revealed. Even with ninjutsu, the moment you start moulding the chakra/forming hand seals, they can pinpoint you. If you're close enough and they're fast enough to get there before you can finish, you're out of luck.

Alternatively you could try to strike them while they're unaware of your presence (with weaponry or taijutsu), but making use of the element of surprise is a thing for quite a few ninja. Especially ones that know they need to land their skillshots (for lack of a better way to put it) to do their best (e.g. nin/gen users). But in their case, they have to plan ahead. A Yamanaka, for example, could find an ideal vantage point while suppressing their chakra, line up their aim, and cast mind-body switch or any other clan tech, for that matter. It's not always a guaranteed hit, but there's a good chance it'll work as long as they do it right.

@Babis: The only reason I say "technique" is that it's better understood to be an active ability rather than a passive. But SCs like Sensory and Tracker are active abilities, so I suppose it's not too much of a stretch to leave it with the SC.

Alternatively we could say they have to specify that they're suppressing chakra in order for it to be active. If they don't specify that they are, then they aren't.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

What I am saying is, it makes sense for someone who has Sensory to know how to hide their own chakra where someone who specializes in moving around quietly in the shadows has absolutely no reason as to why they should also have their chakra passively suppressed and completely void the already weakened Sensor SC. That's why I said it would make sense for someone who has Sensory and Stealth to be the perfect assassin as opposed to just having a free pass for all sensory jutsu while also moving without making sound and being pretty much invisible in the shadows due to that SC. As it is now, the Stealth SC gives too many easily exploitable perks that make all village defenses pointless as they can just walk through the barrier, look like a civilian and have a chakra pool as large as one to completely keep themselves from being found out. I will say it again, not even Pain could move through the barrier surrounding Konoha without setting off every alarm to mobilize teams to intercept and fight him while he had the Doujutsu that could actually see the damn thing.

U liek mah Font Travs?

Posts : 757

Is it fine if my clan gets reworked? I'm fine with removing the chakra civilian thing, but I don't want you to think I'm playing favorites or getting special abilities cuz "staff" or something else. I'm fine with anything you propose (or anyone else that may have an issue with it) as long as its fair.

What if I just take that portion out about the stealth thing, and then be able to transform into people kinda like mystique does? Would that be fair? But that'd also mean I'd be able to fight and retain all of my combat powers while looking like someone else, down to every single hair follicle. The "stealth" would come from the shape-shifting, just like Mystique in Days of Future past.

If we remove the chakra suppressing bit from stealth, you understand that stealth at A rank would have to be buffed in other areas, so much to the point that if you didn't see the person or notice them legitimately (sensory or not) they'd be able to assassinate very easily.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

I've been talking it over with Yosh and though we both would rather hang onto stealth the way it is, we hashed out ideas for a different way to do it. Chakra suppression would still be there, but to a different degree so they aren't completely invisible to sensory. But limiting it to sensory/stealth is going to be a no, because if you know how to use chakra you should be able to learn how to suppress it.

On that same note, I do want to mention that sensory is due for re-buffing anyway, it was nerfed way too hard (only a few things really had to be changed rather than half of the SC).

Both will be discussed and then posted up.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Faker wrote:: If we remove the chakra suppressing bit from stealth, you understand that stealth at A rank would have to be buffed in other areas, so much to the point that if you didn't see the person or notice them legitimately (sensory or not) they'd be able to assassinate very easily.

A Rank Stealth wrote:: A characteristic bestowed upon those elite ninja whose stealth became even deadlier through training and experience. The ninja now has a Black Ops member's stealth which allows them to move within the shadows like a phantom and completely blend in with darkness, rendering them invisible. Along with being able to create no sound, the ninja is now able to suppress their chakra to a near undetectable level, rendering them the perfect assassins. Those with this characteristic can easily eliminate shinobi from the shadows, as well as infiltrate buildings with increased ease.

You honestly believe it needs additional buffs once it loses it's "Dropping Chakra to Civilian levels", even though it already has "Black Ops member's stealth which allows them to move within the shadows like a phantom and completely blend in with darkness, rendering them invisible. Along with being able to create no sound.".

I believe that some other SC's don't even have THAT big an increase in mastery once it ranks up. You have near perfect stealth at A rank and don't even need to use chakra in order to move without making sound and being able to literally become as good as invisible in the shadows. There is absolutely no reason why on top of all of that, someone with stealth would also for No Reason [As they are not Sensors and would not know how to read chakra or lower their own anymore than any other person without sensory] get the ability to make their chakra almost non-existent and take away their threat level.

If anything, the "the ninja is now able to suppress their chakra to a near undetectable level" should be added to the Sensor SC, not to the Stealth SC as, like I said, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

There's really no point in arguing with that post like that after I explicitly stated that we had been talking it over and will be making edits to Stealth (and Sensory) and nerf the suppression. It's not going to be buffed in other areas as compensation, either.

I feel like you're wrong about one thing, though. You learn to manipulate chakra, "feel" your own chakra as you manipulate it, and you can sense where your reserves are as you expend chakra, so I really don't think being able to suppress your own chakra is too much of a stretch.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

TwinnyPuppy wrote:: There's really no point in arguing with that post like that after I explicitly stated that we had been talking it over and will be making edits to Stealth (and Sensory) and nerf the suppression. It's not going to be buffed in other areas as compensation, either.

I feel like you're wrong about one thing, though. You learn to manipulate chakra, "feel" your own chakra as you manipulate it, and you can sense where your reserves are as you expend chakra, so I really don't think being able to suppress your own chakra is too much of a stretch.

I know what you're saying, but I am not sure if you've been reading what I said completely. Shinobi can do that kind of thing, but of all those people, those with Sensory should be the best at it so it makes more sense for them to have them than a Stealth person.

I am saying this MAINLY because "You learn to manipulate chakra, "feel" your own chakra as you manipulate it, and you can sense where your reserves are as you expend chakra", meaning a Stealth person has just as much right to have this as any other person on US.

Posts : 757

Canonically youre right, but realize is that sensory in the manga isn't just some side thing people pick up like they would on US. It's more than just some "SC" that anyone can learn or master. Either you specialize in sensory, or you're so overpowered that your character wouldn't even be considered on a site like this.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Faker wrote:: Canonically youre right, but realize is that sensory in the manga isn't just some side thing people pick up like they would on US. It's more than just some "SC" that anyone can learn or master. Either you specialize in sensory, or you're so overpowered that your character wouldn't even be considered on a site like this.

Be that as it may, I tried explaining that someone with Sensory is the most deserving and probably the only kind of SC that is remotely deserving of getting to passively mask their presence chakra-wise.

Next to Sensors, I believe someone with stealth would have just as much reason to be capable of the whole "the ninja is now able to suppress their chakra to a near undetectable level" thing as one without it due to the statement made by Puppy, who basically summarized what I was trying to say.

TwinnyPuppy wrote:: You learn to manipulate chakra, "feel" your own chakra as you manipulate it, and you can sense where your reserves are as you expend chakra, so I really don't think being able to suppress your own chakra is too much of a stretch.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

My suggestion would be to make Sensory and Suppression an entirely different field of Specialty.

The abilities and advantages they have to offer are way more than Special Characteristics that every ninja can eventually acquire. In my humble opinion, they should be given their own rules, their own requirements, their own restrictions, and their own techniques that stem from said abilities.

In the series we've seen few Sensors and most of them were high level shinobi. In fact, we have examples of sensors being members in extremely powerful teams (for example Karin and C) as their abilities are really valuable and rare. It has to mean something that most of them were Medics and Genjutsu users (or Yamanaka members).

Edit:

TwinnyPuppy wrote:: so I really don't think being able to suppress your own chakra is too much of a stretch.

And I have to disagree with you @Alex, seeing as even shinobi as powerful as Danzo failed to suppress their chakra and hide from sensors like Karin and C.

Posts : 757

I'm all fine for making balance changes where they need to be. Hypothetically if we use the canon to say "sensors should be able to remove their chakra" then how do you factor in Kakashi who didn't have sensory?

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-338-18/naruto/chapter-333.html

See how Kakuzu says he hit him without a presence? We can't just say "no, that's op" and just leave stealth nerfed for no reason. Kakashi was a born-bred assassin and was damn good at his job. And this goes beyond just "moving like a phantom" or "sounds didn't make footsteps." He was adept at getting into your personal bubble without you knowing.

Quote :: A man who epitomizes versatility, Kakashi's expertise is not limited to the three major ninja skill sets; he is renowned for his tracking abilities and has otherwise displayed proficiency with trap-making, medical, survival, escapism, stealth, subterfuge, and assassination.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kakashi_Hatake

Also @ Keos, you're right. I could kiss your face. Sensory gives you all of this info for B rank SC.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

@Faker, I don't think Kakashi should be used as an example for US. Why? Because he possesses almost every ninja skill. He's pretty much a taboo like Sasuke.

Posts : 757

I'm focusing on his assassin abilities. He is a jack of all trades, but when you read his stuff, he'd pretty much specialize in nin/tai/gen. His real skill is his brain. He wins because he's smart. He's definitely balanced though. Sasuke is a whole 'nother can of worms because he could apparently run down Ten Tails Madara with his bare feet.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

A 6 year old Chunin/11 year old Jonin is not balanced. But okay let's leave that aside and look at Kakashi's stealth abilities. How did he manage to reach that level of stealth and assassination abilities, like Zabuza did? They were both high level shinobi, and Kakashi had joined the ANBU forces. Which means that a B rank rookie should in no hell of a way be able to do that.

Posts : 757

We moved Black Ops to A rank though already.

If Kakashi was on US, he'd have Nin/Tai/Gen. His SC's would no doubt be Stealth/Speed/Ninjutsu Master/Elementalist/Blurred Handseals into No Seals and would probably cap it off with Tracker.

Posts : 760

The ability to sense chakra would be a intrapersonal trait.

The ability to suppress your chakra is a interpersonal trait.

As Keos said, these two things are different in every shape and form. One is good with people and customer service. The other? They are good with themselves and how their body and mind works.

Look, if the villages are 'gimped' because of these "OP" passives that Stealth has, then one has to get with the times man and make a better detection system. Just as technology gets advanced, you best get with the times or you'll get left behind. That's fact, fam.

I do not see anything wrong with ability to mask ones chakra because, again, just as a passive for Evelynn in League of Legends, the moment you do ANY actions, you can detect said character. Tell me how is that OP in any sense. I would totally be with you if he was killing your NPCS and PC's if he was still invisible. But with a passive that literally restricts you to only casual movement, I cannot get with that decision to change it or remove it completely.