Ultimate Shinobi - A Naruto RPG
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Sensor Nin

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BK-201
Kumo Nin
BK-201

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PostSubject: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyMon 09 Feb 2015, 7:05 am

Quote :
Name: Chakra Sensory
Rank: B
Type: Chakra Based
Physical Requirements: N/A
Training Requirements: An 1200 word training post is required to gain this special characteristic.
Description: The ninja awakens a dormant talent they've possessed and develops a new type of sensory. Now being classified as a "Sensor Ninja" the ninja is capable of detecting the presence of other people through a unique application their chakra. This sensory ability has two main facets of function. With the first the user must remaining focused and stationary and as a result the sensor will be able detect their targets from a great distance which can extend to a maximum of 100 meters. In this state they are capable of differentiating a character by their signature chakra alone to such an extent they can pin-point any individual within their sensory limit even if they are surrounded in a crowd as well as the size of their targets' chakra reserves. In the midst of combat, this ability is far less refined as the user is unable to maintain the proper focus. Without the proper time and effort a Sensor is only capable of utilizing their inherent sensory at a maximum of 20 meters and the details they gain are far less specific. They are only able to recognize those of a familiar chakra signature with ease and beyond that their abilities are limited to a sense of vague location with no clues in regard to the actions or abilities of their opponents. If multiple people are in close proximity to each other, it becomes harder to differentiate between chakra signatures. At max range, if people are within 5m of each other, their chakras become muddled. If the targets are within 20m of the sensor, their chakra only becomes muddled if they are within 1m of each other.

Now at some point, there seems to have been some sort of over-reaction resulting in a mad flurry of nerfing Sensor Nin. Some were understandable, like giving it an active/passive range and removing the ability to sense emotions. Some were pedantic, like removing the ability to detect affinity. And then some were really pedantic.

Quote :
At max range, if people are within 5m of each other, their chakras become muddled.

Now, here's the thing. 5 meters, for you American types, is just about 16 feet. That's about two car lengths. So if two people are so much as in the same ROOM as each other, apparently their chakra aura is able to stretch out the length of two cars and "mingle" and muddy each other. That's ridiculous. Further more, the wording- This is at the max range. 100m. Apparently, if they're at 20m or closer, they need to be within 1m; 3 feet; of each other before their chakra starts hugging it out. What about the other 80 odd meters unaccounted for? Is 50 meters out gonna be the same as 20m, or the same as 100m? It leaves a lot of wiggle room, is what I'm saying.

Now, let's look at some bull about the "passive" mode, 20 meter range.

Quote :
They are only able to recognize those of a familiar chakra signature with ease and beyond that their abilities are limited to a sense of vague location with no clues in regard to the actions or abilities of their opponents.

Now let's look at this logically. Why shouldn't a Sensor nin be able to detect fluctuations in the chakra at this range? Think of it like feeling the heat from a flame; if you can feel it, you can feel it, period. If that flame suddenly flares and starts generating more heat, you should definitely be able to feel that. Or if you can visibly see the flame, you'll be able to actually SEE it flaring up or dying down. There's no reason to be able to detect the chakra, but then be unable to distinguish CHANGES in the chakra.

I mean, really, if you want to limit it, the Canon already offers two solid ways; Sensor Nins can detect other Sensor Nins unless they suppress their chakra, and they can't both Sensor and suppress at the same time. If anyone has a problem with Stealth users being able to hide themselves completely from Sensor nin, consider; Sensor Nin is a B rank SC. The level of stealth that allows chakra suppression is A rank. Of course the higher-ranked SC is going to outmatch the lower rank one. If you want a level of Sensor Nin that negates Stealth, create a bloody A-S rank sensor SC.
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Faker
Nukenin
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Posts : 756

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PostSubject: Re: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyMon 09 Feb 2015, 7:54 am

So the problem with sensory IMO:

Sensory isn't something that anyone 'picks' up in the show. Usually people that have it have gimped abilities (like Karin or C the genjutsu lightning guy who are 'sideline' characters) or they are extremely overpowered like Minato or Madara or Nidaime Hokage. It's a trait that someone either has that makes them really strong, or a trait that they've put time an effort into to learn. Sensory is shown imo more like a specialty than a special characteristic.  (If sensory was a spec it would be way easier to balance)

People who use shadow clones can't hide from you. Someone that throws down a smoke bomb cant pop a shadow clone nor can someone assault you from underground anymore, nor can they surprise you with numbers. Sensory alerts the user of any chakra attack coming their way for 20m without them having to try. Sensory as an SC is kind of a bad idea IMO because it takes no skill on the effort of the user to be able to use it well, unlike all the other SC's which require some effort or at least tier for you to hit to attain them.

The same can be argued for stealth, but you have to be at least Jounin to get it and you cant use any per post jutsu or your stealth is broken. Sensory gives you things for free with out trying and that's not exactly how its represented in the show. (Or at least its original showcasing of a exclusive ability with karin)

Sorry for rambling, but this sensory nerf is supposed to be this: If you're bunched up within 20m of the user (hidden or w/e) the sensory user doesn't sense individual chakras unless they happen to be vastly different. They sense a 'group' of chakra all at one time. Once those chakras break away from one another they can sense them just fine. This allows people to hide from sensory the same way they can with Sharingan, by either hiding in chakra or hiding behind it. (Kirigakure no jutsu)

So you're kind of right that they should be able to sense each other, but that last line isn't clearly written out for intent.

The problem isn't necessarily sensory but its more like, what you get for just picking it up. There are few characters who would suffer from picking up sensory and almost anyone can benefit from getting it. Yet, putting strength on a Hyuuga is a bad idea or taking ninjutsu master on a Kaguya isn't a good idea or taking endurance on a puppet user isn't a good idea. You can still take these SC's if you have a unique build, but we all know Hyuuga's dont need full strikes to work Jyuuken, Kaguya's should be taijutsu focused because they literally are walking weapons and puppet users dont need endurance because they shouldn't be close enough to get hit in the first place. But if you apply that logic to sensory, there are very few characters that would actually lose out.

Also at the bit about the S Rank sensor thing. Sensing someone who is suppressing their chakra should always be impossible, unless we all have some median level of chakra within us that can't be suppressed. Again, when you use stealth, you cut yourself off to any attack (besides plain punches and kicks etc) that has a chakra cost. That negatively impacts your character. By just upping sensory to S Rank to be able to sense someone who has stealth on wouldn't be fair imo. I know people hate stealth, but the problem isn't stealth by itself. It's the combination of stealth and a whole bunch of other things as I've said before. Just imagine if Zabuza was as fast as Gai or something. He'd be crazy strong.

Sensory will always be hard to tackle because you can argue it needs buffs, you can argue it needs nerfs and you can argue everyone should have it (to some degree). But just slamming it in the special characteristics section without really trying to balance it against character types/SC's/specs ins't really a good idea. It might need more tiers. I think I was fine with sensory being a lot stronger, if it scaled to S Rank.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

Sensor Nin Vide
PostSubject: Re: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyMon 09 Feb 2015, 5:58 pm

You for one had a clan that fully suppressed chakra, which is something I personally am fine with, though I don't think all people should be able to completely remove all traces of their own chakra aside from that particular clan ability. As for massing chakra together in a close range, I don't think it should be working like that. Everyone has their own chakra signature, so saying that when people are standing together, their chakras lump together and cannot be told apart really does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

Just my two cents, people can either just ignore it or respond to it, it is really all I had to say about it.
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Faker
Nukenin
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Posts : 756

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PostSubject: Re: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyMon 09 Feb 2015, 6:54 pm

Yes, whenever sensory is looked at we should look at stealth and all types of stealth. I think when I was working on it we failed to do that simply because we were overlooking the fact that stealth and sensory were B and A Ranked, so we naturally assumed stealth should beat out sensory.

Sensory is completely free and requires no skill to use, and the same is argued for stealth except you can't do jutsu. How can we keep both of these skills available for roleplayers so that they're completely balanced and one does not always hard counter the other?

Here's something that I thought about last night:

The main problem arises when using stealth for surprise attacks versus sensory. Maybe we can just buff sensory a tad bit, and make it a stand alone A Rank thing to match stealth's power. Then we can say that instead of complete suppression of chakra, a stealth users chakra doesn't fluctuate and appears to be a generic chakra to sensory users. They have no signature or anything that would cause them to be unique. Their chakra doesn't rise or fall or anything when performing jutsu. It's just there.

That way when stealth users use techniques, sensory users or (probably all chakra sight except the Byakugan) can't determine how their chakra is being molded. They can determine that it is there, but they cannot determine what they're doing with it. We can also say stealth users can lower their level of chakra (no matter their other chakra augmenting SCs) to make them harder to find in crowds. (But of course not unnoticeable)

With this, sensory users can still spot stealth users. Stealth users still get the silent foot falls but can't suppress their chakra. Sensory can be buffed that allows it to determine location better and the passive range without focusing could be increased by maybe 10 or 15m. We can also say that the 100m range of sensory can be buffed in that you don't need to remain still - you just can't use it in combat. That way a sensory user can travel with a team with it on, or use it in a supportive fashion, they just can't participate in combat and use the 100m range.

I think working out that idea for a combat situation (stealth vs sensory) is fine because both users are in a sense 'nerfed' yet both of them still get to use their special characteristic. Sensory wouldn't fail to beat stealth nor would stealth lose out to sensory.

Just my 2 cents.
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Kiseki
Konoha Nin
Kiseki

Posts : 1216

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PostSubject: Re: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyTue 10 Feb 2015, 6:56 am

Faker wrote:
Yes, whenever sensory is looked at we should look at stealth and all types of stealth. I think when I was working on it we failed to do that simply because we were overlooking the fact that stealth and sensory were B and A Ranked, so we naturally assumed stealth should beat out sensory.

Sensory is completely free and requires no skill to use, and the same is argued for stealth except you can't do jutsu. How can we keep both of these skills available for roleplayers so that they're completely balanced and one does not always hard counter the other?

Here's something that I thought about last night:

The main problem arises when using stealth for surprise attacks versus sensory. Maybe we can just buff sensory a tad bit, and make it a stand alone A Rank thing to match stealth's power. Then we can say that instead of complete suppression of chakra, a stealth users chakra doesn't fluctuate and appears to be a generic chakra to sensory users. They have no signature or anything that would cause them to be unique. Their chakra doesn't rise or fall or anything when performing jutsu. It's just there.

That way when stealth users use techniques, sensory users or (probably all chakra sight except the Byakugan) can't determine how their chakra is being molded. They can determine that it is there, but they cannot determine what they're doing with it. We can also say stealth users can lower their level of chakra (no matter their other chakra augmenting SCs) to make them harder to find in crowds. (But of course not unnoticeable)

With this, sensory users can still spot stealth users. Stealth users still get the silent foot falls but can't suppress their chakra. Sensory can be buffed that allows it to determine location better and the passive range without focusing could be increased by maybe 10 or 15m. We can also say that the 100m range of sensory can be buffed in that you don't need to remain still - you just can't use it in combat. That way a sensory user can travel with a team with it on, or use it in a supportive fashion, they just can't participate in combat and use the 100m range.

I think working out that idea for a combat situation (stealth vs sensory) is fine because both users are in a sense 'nerfed' yet both of them still get to use their special characteristic. Sensory wouldn't fail to beat stealth nor would stealth lose out to sensory.

Just my 2 cents.
COOKIE!
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Slurberdur
Kumo Nin
Slurberdur

Age : 28
Posts : 787

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PostSubject: Re: Sensor Nin Sensor Nin EmptyTue 10 Feb 2015, 7:12 am

Kiseki wrote:
Faker wrote:
Yes, whenever sensory is looked at we should look at stealth and all types of stealth. I think when I was working on it we failed to do that simply because we were overlooking the fact that stealth and sensory were B and A Ranked, so we naturally assumed stealth should beat out sensory.

Sensory is completely free and requires no skill to use, and the same is argued for stealth except you can't do jutsu. How can we keep both of these skills available for roleplayers so that they're completely balanced and one does not always hard counter the other?

Here's something that I thought about last night:

The main problem arises when using stealth for surprise attacks versus sensory. Maybe we can just buff sensory a tad bit, and make it a stand alone A Rank thing to match stealth's power. Then we can say that instead of complete suppression of chakra, a stealth users chakra doesn't fluctuate and appears to be a generic chakra to sensory users. They have no signature or anything that would cause them to be unique. Their chakra doesn't rise or fall or anything when performing jutsu. It's just there.

That way when stealth users use techniques, sensory users or (probably all chakra sight except the Byakugan) can't determine how their chakra is being molded. They can determine that it is there, but they cannot determine what they're doing with it. We can also say stealth users can lower their level of chakra (no matter their other chakra augmenting SCs) to make them harder to find in crowds. (But of course not unnoticeable)

With this, sensory users can still spot stealth users. Stealth users still get the silent foot falls but can't suppress their chakra. Sensory can be buffed that allows it to determine location better and the passive range without focusing could be increased by maybe 10 or 15m. We can also say that the 100m range of sensory can be buffed in that you don't need to remain still - you just can't use it in combat. That way a sensory user can travel with a team with it on, or use it in a supportive fashion, they just can't participate in combat and use the 100m range.

I think working out that idea for a combat situation (stealth vs sensory) is fine because both users are in a sense 'nerfed' yet both of them still get to use their special characteristic. Sensory wouldn't fail to beat stealth nor would stealth lose out to sensory.

Just my 2 cents.
COOKIE!


I invested time into your two cents and it made a whole lot of sense.
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