KKG-ripping

Posts : 48

Hey all curious looks ^^

I have this bad habbit of sneaking in stuff, and post places Im not supposed to (like the discusion about how Pat's crystal ball is able to view the forest of death or not), so I thought I for once would do it in a legal way. I never take side though, I usually point out things that should be obvious, like this one:

Adam, our dearest admin, have made a character! Onfortunatly, said char isnt approved yet Neutral

I was curious why, because he, for one, should be the one who knew how to make a good char app. I quickly found a reason as to why. He's clan was a rip-off of a cannon-clan, and he had called it something else, and given it another name. But then I saw that there was two sides of mod-comments, and apparently none had commented on the clan, because that clan hadnt been edited in any way. Actually the clan is discussed, but only if he's supposed to post it in the clan-creation forum.

Im not trying to provoke somebody, or start a debate wether this is a rip-off or not, it just sends a bad signal to the members that the admin can make a rip-off clan, but memebers get denied for making clans that are too similar to others.

Thank you for your tie ^^ Giera

((The clan im reffering to is ofcourse the Hozuki-clan, search Hosuki on google, and itll show up as number one))

Posts : 372

To be honest, what clan on this site isn't a rip off of one? His character is actually close to approval, in my opinion. So it really shouldn't be a problem much longer, though I applaud you for your opinion and input into the situation at hand.

Age : 31 Posts : 1836

Suigetsu's ability to liquify himself has not been stated to be a Kekkei Genkai ability, it is merely assumed to be a special trait like Karin's ability to sense chakra or Konan's ability to manipulate paper. These aren't really Kekeki Genkai in themselves, only special abilities which the ninja came up with through training. At least that's what I've figured out because remember that a Kekkei Genkai is not a common trait, so saying that any ninja with a unique ability has a Kekkei Genkai isn't a logical theory. I don't really believe that there's anything wrong with Adam making a customized version of Suigetsu's clan. After all, we already have a custom version of a Magma/Lava clan (Megami), a paper manipulating clan (Tetsumi), an Iron Sand manipulating clan (Metaru) and so many more. This isn't the first "Kekkei Genkai rip-off", all of the clan's I've mentioned so far are Canon abilities formatted into a clan.

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Ulkira wrote:: Suigetsu's ability to liquify himself has not been stated to be a Kekkei Genkai ability, it is merely assumed to be a special trait like Karin's ability to sense chakra or Konan's ability to manipulate paper. These aren't really Kekeki Genkai in themselves, only special abilities which the ninja came up with through training. At least that's what I've figured out because remember that a Kekkei Genkai is not a common trait, so saying that any ninja with a unique ability has a Kekkei Genkai isn't a logical theory. I don't really believe that there's anything wrong with Adam making a customized version of Suigetsu's clan. After all, we already have a custom version of a Magma/Lava clan (Megami), a paper manipulating clan (Tetsumi), an Iron Sand manipulating clan (Metaru) and so many more. This isn't the first "Kekkei Genkai rip-off", all of the clan's I've mentioned so far are Canon abilities formatted into a clan.

Summed up what I was going to say.

Posts : 48

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Suigetsu_H%C5%8Dzuki

Yeah, well I would have to disagree with that... Hozuki obviously have some special abilities, and his special characteristics, like purple eyes and shark teeth indicates that he belongs to some special kind. Also Suigetsu have a brother, who have the same ability, wich further confirms that it is a clan-related ability.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hydration_Technique

Also this special ability to liquify yourself is listed as a secret jutsu. Secret jutsus are often jutsus that belongs to certain clans or BL's.

As stated I dont want to debate, but it seemed that you hadnt searched for the Hozuki as i suggested, so Ive posted the links, and explanations.

Yes, theres made several rip-offs, but this is different. First off this one is closed. I know its not a good argument, but closing a cannon clan is like taking an official logo, and put your TM on it, and say that only you may use it. Yes, its not illegal, but what if someone had made a Nara-clan ripoff, and made that closed? Wouldnt you disagree with that? Just becase the clan havent been noticed and listed in cannon-clan section it doesnt mean it isnt a cannon clan. Secondly, It have been changed. In Naruto we learn that Suigetsu is made out of something jelly like, and you can read about it in the first link too or watch the episode where Suigetsu fight the 8-tailed, that this actually have something biological to do with your body. This biology leeds to a lot of obvious weaknesses, that follows. The Nakamaru clan doesnt have anything mentioned about this, and it seems like your just a human that can transform into water, and the obvious weakneses can be neutralized at some level if your skilled enough. Its like me making a ripoff of the Nara-clan, and saying that i dont need to stand still, while chasing my opponent with my shadow.
Point is that this is far away from the actual clan, sounds more like an offspring. So what happens if someone makes the actual Hozuki clan? Is he denied for making a clan that is too similar to the rip-off of Hozuki? Seems odd.

I dont know if its going to be such a great problem, as I think it is, and if you cant agree with me the i gues there's nothing to do, but I just think its a bad signal to send, thats all Neutral

Age : 31 Posts : 2547

Giera wrote:: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Suigetsu_H%C5%8Dzuki

Yeah, well I would have to disagree with that... Hozuki obviously have some special abilities, and his special characteristics, like purple eyes and shark teeth indicates that he belongs to some special kind. Also Suigetsu have a brother, who have the same ability, wich further confirms that it is a clan-related ability.

It was never stated in the manga that Mangetsu had the same abilities.

Giera wrote:: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hydration_Technique

Also this special ability to liquify yourself is listed as a secret jutsu. Secret jutsus are often jutsus that belongs to certain clans or BL's.

As stated I dont want to debate, but it seemed that you hadnt searched for the Hozuki as i suggested, so Ive posted the links, and explanations.

And to quote this, as you so mentioned.

Quote :: Hiden (秘伝, Secret) jutsu are passed down from generation to generation in certain regions or clans.
The groups possessing these techniques are usually extremely secretive about them. They ensure that no one other than the members of the group learn them. Only a few hiden jutsu require a special ability or lineage. These jutsu are usually the pride and fame of the clan that possesses them. The Nara clan's Shadow Imitation Technique and the Aburame clan's Destruction Bug Host Technique are some examples of this.
They are not to be confused with kekkei genkai, a technique that require a specific genetic ability, as technically, Hiden can be taught to anyone.

It does say it's usually passed down through clans or region, but there is no evidence that there even is a clan. They are not to be confused with Kekkei Genkai.. Hmm. So what were you saying about them belonging to certain Bloodlines?

Giera wrote:: Yes, theres made several rip-offs, but this is different. First off this one is closed. I know its not a good argument, but closing a cannon clan is like taking an official logo, and put your TM on it, and say that only you may use it. Yes, its not illegal, but what if someone had made a Nara-clan ripoff, and made that closed? Wouldnt you disagree with that? Just becase the clan havent been noticed and listed in cannon-clan section it doesnt mean it isnt a cannon clan. Secondly, It have been changed. In Naruto we learn that Suigetsu is made out of something jelly like, and you can read about it in the first link too or watch the episode where Suigetsu fight the 8-tailed, that this actually have something biological to do with your body. This biology leeds to a lot of obvious weaknesses, that follows. The Nakamaru clan doesnt have anything mentioned about this, and it seems like your just a human that can transform into water, and the obvious weakneses can be neutralized at some level if your skilled enough. Its like me making a ripoff of the Nara-clan, and saying that i dont need to stand still, while chasing my opponent with my shadow.
Point is that this is far away from the actual clan, sounds more like an offspring. So what happens if someone makes the actual Hozuki clan? Is he denied for making a clan that is too similar to the rip-off of Hozuki? Seems odd.

I dont know if its going to be such a great problem, as I think it is, and if you cant agree with me the i gues there's nothing to do, but I just think its a bad signal to send, thats all

All you did was repeat yourself using different words and more speculative statements with an attempt to make them look like facts. Of course there are going to be weaknesses to someone turning their entire body into water, like extreme susceptibility to the lightning element. How does that prove it's a Bloodline ability exactly? The biological aspect? Well, I hate to repeat, but Konan could turn her body into paper, does that mean it was a bloodline ability? Nope. I'm pretty sure that's where chakra comes in. Naruto is often a series with little logical consistency when it comes to what can be done with it. For all we know the ability came from Orochimaru's experiments.

I don't really know why I'm still going with this, because the validity of your argument is null when we come back to one simple fact that there's still no evidence Hozuki is really a clan, and even if it was, certain clans we don't know much about like Haku's were recreated because of lack of information. Seeing as he's the first one to try for it, it's his choice whether he wants to have it open or closed. I'm sorry if there are new members that would like to be apart of the clan. If their application is done well enough, they may be able to get special permission from Adam. Who knows.

Posts : 48

Im not agreeing with you. I see your arguments, as you see mine, invalid. As you did, I will quote for quote describe why this is.

Quote :: It does say it's usually passed down through clans or region, but there is no evidence that there even is a clan. They are not to be confused with Kekkei Genkai.. Hmm. So what were you saying about them belonging to certain Bloodlines?

Okay. Then its not BL-related. As sugested in the description, those are often confused. But instead of looking at my valid argument (that Nakamaru's abilities belong to an open canon clan), you point out that I've made a comon mistake.

Quote :: Nothing you said here brings up any factual basis for your argument. All you did was repeat yourself using different words and more speculative statements with an attempt to make them look like facts.

I dont try to make anything look like fact. Im asking a line of questions, and try to explain why I am seeing this as a bad signal.

Quote :: Of course there are going to be weaknesses to someone turning their entire body into water, like extreme susceptibility to the lightning element.

You say ofcourse there's going to be a weaknes, the problem is just that if your skilled enough member of the Nakamaru clan you can remove that weaknes. At least thats what Ive come to understand.

Quote :: How does that prove it's a Bloodline ability exactly? The biological aspect? Well, I hate to repeat, but Konan could turn her body into paper, does that mean it was a bloodline ability? I'm pretty sure that's where chakra comes in.

Bloodline means that youve been born with some sort of ability that lies within your genes. Like the sharingan. You cant learn sharingan, like you can learn Nara techniques, or paper techniques. No, you have to take that gene-manipulation, and implant it on yourself to be able to use it. Konan's paper release are a line of selfmade jutsus, that she somehow have a talent for. She could be the founder of a paper clan, where she could learn, those within the clan, how to do paper-jutsus. Then there's a mix, where, such as the Senju clan requires some kind of genes to make a line of jutsus. The thing you talk about has nothing to do with a BL, and your confusing BL's with clans, as I did earlyer. The clan abilities can be learned by people who isnt a part of the clan, and thats why I said that Adam's clan could be a branch of the Hozuki. The gene-manipulation of suigetsu (that he turns into a jelly-like substance when he's unconcious, and for some reason need more water than ordinary humans) sugests that he does have a gene-manipulation AKA bloodline.

Quote :: Naruto is often a series with little logical consistency when it comes to what can be done with it. For all we know the ability came from Orochimaru's experimentations.

We don't know that the ability is a result of Orochimaro's expiriments. All we know is that Orochimaro expirimented with him. This might as well draw the conclusion that Suigetsu was interesting for Orochimaro because of his ability.

Quote :: I don't really know why I'm still going with this, because the validity of your argument is null...

Saying that my arguments is invalid, because I dont bring in any real facts, as you doesnt do either, or confuse certain terms, that you confuse yourself, is really not cool Neutral

Quote :: ...when we come back to one simple fact that there's still no evidence Hozuki is really a clan, and even if it was, certain clans we don't know much about like Haku's were recreated because of lack of information.

That is an odd argument. Saying that we shouldnt draw any lines because there's no evidence? When you show me evidence that the planet (if it is a planet) that the "Naruto" takes place on is round, and not flat, then that argument is valid, in my eyes. (Not to be quoted by people who take things litterally, this is just to describe how wide/vague that argument is, and that many things is logical and shouldnt needed to be written down black on white before we can conclude anything).

Quote :: Seeing as he's the first one to try for it, it's his choice whether he wants to have it open or closed. I'm sorry if their are new members that would like to be apart of the clan. If their application is done well enough, they may be able to get special permission from Adam. Who knows.

Yes, as I said it isnt illegal, I just dont think it's cool done. Reasons you will find in my invalid post above yours.

If you want valid arguments, I will give you these four options, and describe how I got to my conclusion. If you could do so, and find arguments that could sugest something else, that would be nice.
Suigetsu Hozuki uses a line of Hiden jutsus. Suigetsu must have the knowledge of those jutsus somewhere right?
1.He must either have learned them from someone from a clan (Suigetsu have known someone from the clan, and have learned them from him somehow, and decided only to use these jutsus. The creators made the genemanipulation, jelly-like state, purple eyes etc, for fun, and thought it was awesome)
2.Have been a part of the clan (Suigetsu is a part of a clan that have specialized in this Hydration jutsu etc. The creators made the genemanipulation, jelly-like state, purple eyes etc, for fun, and thought it was awesome)
3.Or the last option, he have a certain gene-manipulation that allows him to make the clan-related, and or, hiden jutsus ,such as the Senjus. (This includes that Suigetsu have developed these abilities himself, but it is still dependant on his genes)
4.Is a creation of Orochimaru (But do have a brother in some obscure way, and Orochimaru learned him all the jutsus, without doing them himself because... they werent snakey enough for him)

The first thing I thought when I saw that there had been a reply was: "I hope that it's someone who agrees Smile

", obviously, lol. But when I saw your first comment, I thought: "Oh heck... If theres 3 mods (one admin) and someone who shrugs at it, it doesnt matter. Ill just type an "OK"". But then I read your post through, and it irritated me that you called my arguments invalid, as if you were the right to judge wether the arguments are valid or not. Then you ignore my arguments wether this is okay to do or not, or wether this will send a bad signal or not, and call it non-factual, without even thinking about what I've said. And then you go on mixing KKG's, special talents and clans in one big mess, a thing youve pointed out that I didnt know in a, let me be honost, rather arogant way ("Hmm. So what were you saying about them belonging to certain Bloodlines?".

I know it wasnt your intention to make me feel offended in the way I did, a comon thing that happens all across cyberspace I asure you. I wont be a bish about it dont worry, but I really needed your post answered, and so I did. For now my message, about handing a cannon-clan this way, doesnt seem to have slipped through, and if it doesnt do then there must be something wrong with it I gues, but many other sites have acknowledged Hozuki as a clan, just search "Hozuki clan", so I thought it was a common opinion.
The heck... I didnt even want to argue about wether it was a BL in the first place Smile

Age : 29 Posts : 766

Well, this is when you don't trust Wikia. When will people learn to never, ever trust something that can be edited by everyone who goes on it.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Jeffie, you need to watch the attitude and get back to working and posting.

Suigetsu isnt listed on Leafninja as a clan, as his ability was due to Orochimaru experimenting on him. Just like Yamato has Senju genes due to the experimentations, Suigetsu has the water shifting. What Adam did was take that ability and make it a clan, like what has been done with a multitude of other special abilities from the manga/show.

Age : 31 Posts : 1836

I'd just like to point out that Kakuzu's Jiongu was a Kinjutsu, which logically would have altered his genetic structure to allow his body to hold all those hearts and threads. If that was a Kinjutsu (i.e a Forbidden Jutsu), then there's no reason as to why Suigetsu's ability couldn't be a simple jutsu, or a Kinjutsu, by itself. The excessive thirst, the jelly-like state, all are most likely drawbacks/consequences of the jutsu. Both of these characters have alterations in their body strucuture, and if one of them can be a Kekkei Genkai it's fully possible for the other to be the same, more than the contrary actually.

Now, I'm not doing this to re-start the argument or anything, just to point out why it isn't necessary that Suigetsu's Hydration technique is a Kekkei Genkai technique.

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Just one little thing other little thing you were mistaken on, shark like teeth or a characteristic of a few Kirigakure shinobi and it suggests on Naruto wikia that it's most likely a trait of Kirigakure shinobi, not a clan like you suggest. Razz

Posts : 372

A KKG is mostly common within a population if its not a filler episode and what not, which a group of ppl usually have the KKG in the show that is the actual storyline. Not many ppl have been on the show that have/had the same powers a Suigetsu. Only person to be kinda like him was that guy in that Naruto Shippuden Movie about the priestess.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Its not necessary, but it makes lives easier if we can classify it as such.

Posts : 48

Okay. I gues that there, technically, nothing is wrong with Adam's app, and I will consider my complain as answered, even though it wasnt the answer I wanted Wink

I didnt mean to start a riot, or root up in Adam's app or anything, but I just hate to see cannon clans/abilities/whatever it was go into the gap of "closed".
Thats all, and thank you for the time ^^

Age : 31 Posts : 2547

I'm not going to take the time to reply to the big post you made seeing as an agreement has been made. I apologize for sounding arrogant.
Resolved and Archived.