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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule

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BK-201
Kumo Nin
BK-201

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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 2:16 pm

As I've heard told by Ruka, apparently there's a new rule buried somewhere (Point me to it if you know precisely where), wherein the user can only have one chakra use at a time.

This brings to mind an interesting thought;

Doesn't this effectively cripple Genjutsu users, as their illusion will drop the moment they use another technique?

Wouldn't Uchiha and Hyuuga logically be incapable of utilizing jutsu, while utilizing their eyes?

Wouldn't trying to fight on a lake result in falling into the water every time you tried using a jutsu besides water-walking? Or for that matter, trying to fight while using Surface Walking?

Wouldn't an Akimichi using their Super Size technique be incapable of using any jutsu without ending the jutsu?

Wouldn't jutsu created armors be completely useless, given utilizing any offensive capacity would immediately nullify them?

I'm sure I could do this all day, if I took the time to look through all the various jutsu and clans.
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Chris
Chris

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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 2:20 pm

http://www.ultimateshinobi.org/t15981-active-passive-jutsu-types
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
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PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 3:54 pm

It's a mess of a situation. There is no written rule for this limitation that I've been able to find. But it has been enforced on numerous occasions. Yet, at the same time there are lots of exceptions to the "rule" out there. Examples of these exceptions are certain clan abilities like the doujutsu of Uchiha/Hyuuga or the academy water surface walking and tree climbing jutsu.

It would be nice to see a more reasonable standard developed and written into the systems pages but I've wrestled with the idea and have been unable to think of a proper way to definitively categorize which jutsu should be exempt from this rule. Short of removing the limitation altogether I'm not sure how to best resolve this crap situation of having an unwritten rule with vague standards.

That being said, I think some of the points you made were exaggerations. Genjutsu users are hardly "crippled" if their illusions end when they use another jutsu. They can still use basic weapons like kunai to lethal effect and there are more than one genjutsu out there which have effects that persist even after the jutsu itself ends. As for defensive/armor jutsu, you just need to make ones that don't require an upkeep to maintain but have a multi-turn duration. This means you can't have one of those nifty defenses that automatically reform upon being destroyed, but that isn't necessary for a defensive jutsu to be of use.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 6:39 pm

that seems pretty easy mugen. just write down a rule stating you can only have 1 offencive jutus, 1 defencive jutsu and up to 3 utility jutsu active at one time. Then state that jutsu that require other jutsu to be activated first to use are exempt to the rule as long as their requirements have been met. Wep and tai would have some additional rules such as allowing a technique based jutsu and a chakra based jutsu to be combined.


Offencive jutsu examples: Resangan, Great vaccume sphere, Genjutsu, etc.

Defencive jutsu examples: lightning release armor, Armor of sand, most healing medical jutsu,

utility jutsu: water/wall walking, hidden mist jutsu, Clones, most academy jutsu,


Offencive jutsu exemption examples: shadow imitation-> shadow strangle; Samurai Sabre technique->Flash or Rupture.

wep/tai combination examples: Jutsu that covers your leg in chakra -> leaf hurricane. Shadow Shuriken Technique->Shuriken Shadow clone. Wind Release: Vaccume blade onto multiple weapons at once, etc.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 7:17 pm

Such a system would potentially allow 5 jutsu being active at once which requires the entire premise of the original limitation being thrown out the window. The reason why it's there in the first place is that it is hard enough molding chakra in one pattern/nature and that adding multiple different kinds of chakra manipulation to produce various jutsu at once would be too difficult. At least, that's the reasoning I've been given. I don't quite agree with it since we've seen multiple jutsu being cast at once in canon. But even I would find 5 active jutsu at a time to be unreasonable.

Another problem I have with what you suggest is that there are situations where having more than one offensive jutsu active at a time would be desired. Darui performs a water jutsu and stacks a lightning jutsu on top of it during the Kage Summit arc. I'd like to see players to be capable of such feats and I'd like them to be able to have more freedom in how many jutsu they perform in general. If I only have C-rank jutsu and a slow B-rank jutsu is coming towards me, I'd like to be able to cast two defensive C-ranks to block it fully. But where do you draw the line? It isn't an easy decision to make.

The BEST idea I could come up with was to have a numerical value placed on each jutsu representing its complexity and a number value for the max complexity a shinobi could handle that would increase with their rank. But this has it's own flaws and challenges. By stacking many low complexity jutsu someone could potentially have a dozen jutsu going at once. There would need to be a balancing period to find out what kind of ranges fit within each rank. A whole new grading standard for how to judge the complexity of new custom jutsu. Not to mention the massive undertaking it would be to redo every jutsu on the site to fit such a system.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyTue 21 Apr 2015, 7:57 pm

mugen, the 5 jutsu you just spoke of......  

cast hidden mist jutsu then water walk on water while making a shadow clone, then have you and your clone  put lightning chakra on your leg and kick the opponent with leaf hurricane...   thats 5 jutsu... right there. with about the most liberal interpretation i can put on it.  

3 of the jutsu are utility after all... water walking, clones, and smokescreen.  so I fail to see your point.
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TwinnyPuppy
TwinnyPuppy

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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 7:58 am

The rule is that you can't use two or more jutsu as the same time, the exceptions to this being things like the tree-climbing/water-walking jutsu simply due to the nature of the techniques. This means that you can't channel chakra for multiple things at the same time, nor can you prepare to launch another jutsu while actively channeling another (so you can't use a fire dragon, and then prepare a secondary jutsu while manipulating said dragon, for example). The fact that activating a doujutsu is also excluded from this limitation does make the rule seem a lot less logical, but the main purpose is to prevent situations like I described previously. It makes more sense for somebody to put some chakra into their retinas/eyeballs and spit a fireball than it does for somebody to be controlling a fire dragon and also spitting a fireball at the same time.

Regardless, coming up with a more solid way to classify things and determine what can and can't be used simultaneously is a good idea, but rather than making it based on if a technique is offensive, defensive, or purely for utility, I think it's better to write rules for specific things, especially since doujutsu can't be considered low-cost/low-concentration upkeep and thus simply stating you can only continue with low-cost/low-concentration upkeep while using a new jutsu wouldn't work. That would leave room to talk about things like jutsu-created armor, medical jutsu, doujutsu, and other things separately. Essentially what would happen is there would be a general rule, and then rules for very specific things, similar to how there are general weaponry limitations for those that don't have the weaponry specialty, but tai users are given a minor exception for gauntles/knuckles (up to B rank).
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 12:40 pm

To be honest, this has been a part of US for as long as I can remember. Back when I still had Yoroi, I was always crippled by not being able to use bones for defense and applying another jutsu at the same time. At some point, i figured it started to make sense to me from a "Balance" perspective. Now, as for the things that have been pointed out, I wanted to say the following.

Genjutsu:
From what I have been told, Genjutsu are performed by more or less injecting your chakra into someone else's chakra pathways and causing it to create the Illusions, which is also why someone else forcing their chakra into said person can break it and all that. If someone uses a Genjutsu and placed their chakra into someone else, there is no reason as to why they can not use another jutsu once the Genjutsu is landed, simply because said chakra that has been used is already inside of the target and no longer under your direct control. Though this would differ based on whether you cast an Illusion that requires maintained chakra costs per post as opposed to those that have a set period of time, it really depends on the circumstances and the description of the Genjutsu used.

Doujutsu:
Doujutsu and Water/Tree walking have always been excluded from this because it would completely cripple their Kekkei Genkai and make it useless. Though I don't have any further information to add to this, it is just how things have always been and worked out for everyone.

Akimichi:
Yes and No. The Akimichi Size Expansion jutsu do not stack, so an Akimichi that used an S ranked jutsu to increase their entire body to Godzilla-size can't use another size expansion jutsu to make their fist even bigger, seeing as they are already at Max size. As for an Akimichi at full-size using a fireball, that would more or less break the game. If a 30 meters tall giant would spit a C ranked fireball, it would stand to reason that said fireball would be bigger than most A or S ranked fireballs, which would be rather game breaking. So for the Akimichi, I think it makes sense that they can not use other jutsu outside of the whole "Rollin'" technique.

Chakra Defenses:
Defenses on US are already entirely useless and shitty. You can use a Chakra armor on yourself, though rules dictate that they can not have any offensive purposes and can only tank a jutsu of equal rank. Maintaining such an armor would require a fair amount of concentration and chakra manipulation skills of above B rank to say the least, so it makes sense that they cannot use chakra for means other than that defense. But in defense of... defenses, most Shields created for the sake of weaponry are weak as shit too. Rule wise, a shinobi's bones are pretty much harder than a Titanium shield as a C ranked kick can break a C ranked shield. Just Saiyan, it is kind of a crappy system (in regards to the durability of shields created through the weaponry spec).

Addition:
Since the whole point has been brought up, I see this as the perfect opportunity for me to present something I have been working on for the past two months. Personally, I believe that there has to be a system for what i'd like to call the "Progenitor factor". An example: "Shinobi1 creates wings made out of fire chakra that are connected to his chakra pathways. Shinobi1 uses a jutsu to shoot feather shaped flames from said wings". Basically what this does is make use of jutsu that are in still connected to the body, like the chakra wings. Due to said jutsu acting as a part of the body as a result of both great levels of chakra control and shape manipulation, secondary jutsu can be created out of that same jutsu as long as they are directly affiliated with it and state that the jutsu is its progenitor. An example would be the wings being the progenitor, the fire feather barrage jutsu being a "Descendant" that can only be used when the progenitor is active. I understand the TL;DR route a lot of people take, but I would really like it if people read everything before asking questions about this.

What this does is basically allowing for people to create specific jutsu that can have spin-off jutsu made for it. Since things like these are supposed to be really hard to do, I do want to point out that things like these should only be available for people of at least A rank that possess the Ninjutsu Master SC to keep people from abusing something like this. By including something like this to the site, you are basically allowing people to make the most out of their Ninjutsu specialization by making use of what Masashi Kishimoto called "Shape Transformation" and "Chakra Control". When you read those two pages, you may see things the same way as I do. Adding something like this will give the Jounin/Master Jounin/Sennin something that only they can do while at the same time giving Genin and Chuunin something to look forward to.

While this will in no way allow people to use two elemental natures at the same time or create a second fireball out of the fireball jutsu, I think this can give a bit more freedom to the people who enjoy making their own strategies for combat threads and enjoy making their own custom techniques. If we are to integrate this into the site, you don't need to actually make any changes to the systems or the jutsu we already have in the encyclopedia or on the clan page, so it will save staff a lot of work while at the same time giving people more creative freedom, as well as an entirely new avenue of techniques that can be used. It will require some attention from the mod checking it, seeing as there should be nothing like the fireball example I gave.

When I think about this Progenitor system, I think about someone using fire wings as a foundation for a fire feather barrage, a water shield being used as a foundation for shooting compressed bullets of water, an earth shield acting as a foundation for creating earthen spikes as a means of protecting them from a physical assault and giving said shield a chance at biting back by having someone jump into the spikes. Hell, you can even go a step further by firing said spikes. All of these things are perfectly plausible things to do and can be fought against well enough, though they go to add a hidden offensive or defensive agenda to a jutsu you're using. But like I said, this should not be for anyone beneath A rank that does not have the Ninjutsu Master SC, nor should it be allowed for anything but custom jutsu (both progenitor and descendant) so as to limit the possibility of people breaking this system (seeing as how a lot of encyclopedia jutsu are already really strong and most custom jutsu get checked very strictly to reduce the amount of OP or Unbalance that passes).

To me, this is really what the "Ninjutsu Master" is about, the mastery of Ninjutsu, just like how a Medical Chief knows everything there is to know about animal and human anatomy, knows how to fight or create basically any poison while at the same time having the skills to pretty much heal any wound.




Now, I made these jutsu a while ago, and while the wings themselves were approved, the feather barrage could not pass due to the 2 jutsu at the same time law we have. While I agreed with it at the time, it is also around that same time that I started tinkering with this system and tried to find a way to bring this to the public and to staff in a way that might make people understand how this would/should work. In my opinion, I believe that I can talk for months about this, but an example of how something like this would actually work would be able to sway people into agreeing or disagreeing a lot sooner, thus getting this whole thing passed or denied that much faster. So, click the spoiler below if you want to see exactly what I am ranting about.

Example jutsu I made:
 
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 3:05 pm

Hiruzen, your entire argument could honestly have been boiled down to pointing at two jutsu in the encyclopedia right now:
Spoiler:
 

Granted, the first jutsu doesn't have a constant upkeep cost. However, the second jutsu requires that the first still be active before you can use it. If that doesn't fit the picture, here is a pair of jutsu I currently have approved on Mugen:
Spoiler:
 

So obviously, somewhere at some point, someone decided that it would be okay for a jutsu to act as a parent for another jutsu. I don't really like the progenitor term but that's beside the point. I think it would be reasonable to allow this kind of thing considering the fact that we already sort of do. I think the big difference between what you're suggesting and what's been approved is that these follow up jutsu currently seem to end the parent jutsu. Hari Jizou doesn't have an upkeep so it would end regardless and Claim Cut makes Wire Claim too unstable to be maintained. I find this to be pretty darn fair. I realize that kind of limitation would screw with your fire wings. It would be pretty inconvenient to lose the wings just because you shot some more fire out of them, but it makes sense to me from the standpoint that your chakra flow goes towards something else instead of the original jutsu.

Besides, from a balance standpoint the wings are already serving a defensive purpose and a mobility enhancement purpose. If they could let you bombard people with attacks from a child jutsu as well then what's to stop you from just flying overhead out of everyone's reach pretending you're a stealth bomber? If your opponent doesn't have wind jutsu or a quick enough water jutsu with the right range, there would be no stopping you. The thing preventing this is the short range on your secondary jutsu, but there is no limitation saying it has to be short range. If you didn't abuse such a jutsu combination, someone else eventually would by making a long range secondary jutsu born from their defensive flight jutsu.

To end this post I'll just reiterate that I think it's fine to have jutsu created from existing jutsu so long as the original jutsu comes to an end. But we already more or less go by that standard soooo....I guess I'm supporting status quo here?
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 4:22 pm

Mugen wrote:
Besides, from a balance standpoint the wings are already serving a defensive purpose and a mobility enhancement purpose. If they could let you bombard people with attacks from a child jutsu as well then what's to stop you from just flying overhead out of everyone's reach pretending you're a stealth bomber? If your opponent doesn't have wind jutsu or a quick enough water jutsu with the right range, there would be no stopping you. The thing preventing this is the short range on your secondary jutsu, but there is no limitation saying it has to be short range. If you didn't abuse such a jutsu combination, someone else eventually would by making a long range secondary jutsu born from their defensive flight jutsu.


That is exactly why I said staff would need to pay attention when checking such jutsu while taking possible uses of a jutsu into the equation. Again, i'll say that the purpose of the jutsu I linked was nothing more than an example. I put a jutsu of my own in there because I completely forgot about Hari Jizou/Hari Jigoku/Ranjishigami. But now that they are being brought up, I would like to point out that Jiraiya used the technique to harden his hair and move all over the place while firing hair needles at his targets, using his hair to bind people or to completely envelop them with it, though the hardness was maintained when he wanted it to be there.

I don't believe that we should keep things as they are, especially when some people getting something that other people simply won't is already a thing I won't be getting into right now. I want to see this become a part of US or see it removed completely, seeing as "Not being here but still being here" is not a solution to anything. As things are now, we already need to establish which things can be used together and which things can not be used together and write it down in a way that makes it clear to everyone (in regards to the Akimichi and such), because if we do not make a functional system for this, the Nara pull the shortest straw. They need to first create a shadow and then use this shadow to snare someone and possibly kill them.

Shikamaru was seen using at least two or three Nara jutsu at the same time, though in a US setting, that simply would not work, meaning the Nara are receiving a heavy nerf if we do not work out a functional progenitor/descendant system. I don't give a rat's ass as to what it is being called, as long as it is worked out properly and can be used for anyone that meets the requirements. We established so far that people can use Water walking, Tree climbing, Sharingan and Byakugan while still being able to use other stuff, which is really fair, but that does not mean that we should not work out something to make jutsu like Hari Jizou and other combination-jutsu work. It is one of the things this site does not have and one of the things i've always missed.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
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On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 4:57 pm

I agree that the standards/rules regarding this need to be written out somewhere. But what I was saying is that I didn't think the current standards for jutsu outside the exceptions need to change. In both the examples I gave, the original jutsu end as a result of the follow up jutsu. I was stating that I felt that was a fair way to go about things. Sure, the use of Hari Jizou in canon was a lot more versatile, but in an rp forum setting things like that can easily get out of hand. When an author creates a power for a manga it is usually to serve a plot purpose or to make a scene cool and entertaining. But when rper's make powers they often do so in an attempt to be as strong as possible and to improve their chances of wrecking other players as much as they can. So for balance reasons I don't think I would advocate the use of a secondary jutsu unless the original jutsu were ending.

The only other exception I think would be okay and fair is if the original jutsu became part of the secondary jutsu. For example, Darui's move I mentioned before. The initial water stream was part of the end jutsu that included a lightning charge and when one ended they both ended.

I still think we need to tackle the "unspoken" rule issue. I'm simply against allowing one jutsu to continue if another jutsu is used. The exceptions being exceptions to this, of course.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 5:27 pm

Fair enough, as long as it is being addressed, I am fine with it.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyWed 22 Apr 2015, 7:26 pm

I have to agree to that nara point. It was one of the things that stopped me from making one when I joined this site as Shu. Was going to turn my shadow into a tangable avatar of sorts and then preform jutsu and such through the avatar. Just couldn't find a way to make it work. Something like

Spoiler:
 

Another Idea for a character I had was based on kekkaishi, and revolved around making Barriers that could destroy objects caught inside of them, but without the ability to cast multiple ones without bringing down the previous ones even something as simple as making stepping stones in the air or using a barrier to ensnare an opponent's leg would be impossible when continuing in combat.

Spoiler:
 

Even right now, I'm trying to make some steam/mist jutsu and create one that allows me to control the movements of the fog or steam so that I could make safe zones where it wouldn't enter to protect allies if needed, for an additional chakra cost within a set proximity from me. Haven't had anyone to look at it yet, but i'm hoping it will work >_<" I could kinda get around this by just giving the steam/mist jutsu a set duration then just use the control as a channel, but those abilities are ones that I feel I should be paying for on a per post basis and not at a cheaper set rate per X posts. Yet by doing this, it becomes a hindrance.

Maybe this is just me, but shouldn't quickly draining your chakra pool be the main drawback to stuff like this? I know this is coming from a jin with 285 chakra pool,[ which is another reason jin's shouldn't get all of their beasts chakra at creation, i have 50% more then a kage as a genin V_V", but different subject]. But if you wan't to blow all of your chakra in one post, why shouldn't you be allowed to? I'd rather see a rule saying you can only use X chakra per rank of your character per post. Call it a chakra molding limit. for genin, say it's 10 chakra a post. that would allow them to use 2 C ranks, a C and a D, 2 D and a E, or any combination of which ever as long as it doesn't go over 10 chakra. This would also mean when water or wall walking they could only use 1 C rank as they still have to pay for water/wall walking and would reach their cap.

if we could develop a system like that where the amount of jutsu used was limited by how much you could mold a post instead of just by 1 jutsu at a time... I think it would end up staying balanced and combination techniques wouldn't be penilized as much. There would be greater freedom overall. In addition SCs that give chakra reduction discounts would thus allow more techniques a post, and would make said SCs more desirable. It does make more sense that a ninjusu master can mold more jutsu in a post and a weapon master can preform more weapon based techs a post.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 1:09 am

Your post sends mixed messages Crono. First you say:

Quote :
Maybe this is just me, but shouldn't quickly draining your chakra pool be the main drawback to stuff like this? I know this is coming from a jin with 285 chakra pool,[ which is another reason jin's shouldn't get all of their beasts chakra at creation, i have 50% more then a kage as a genin V_V", but different subject]. But if you wan't to blow all of your chakra in one post, why shouldn't you be allowed to?

Then you follow up immediately with a suggestion to limit the amount of chakra you can you in one post. That isn't really important to the point you brought up of limiting chakra usage per post. But I figured I'd point it out to you because I don't think that was intentional.

However, I can't being myself to support that kind of rule. The reason being is that I feel like it would actually hurt an rper's freedom more than a limitation on using multiple jutsu at once. It might grant more creative freedom when crafting jutsu and using them in battle. But it constricts an RPers freedom as a writer.

Most battle rp posts only cover a few seconds of IC "time" that passes by. And for those, this kind of chakra per post limit makes perfect sense. However, I've had rp posts mid-battle that covered several minutes worth of "time" IC to serve plot purposes before. In such posts, the number of character actions and the amount of energy consumed becomes much higher than usual. As a writer, I'd be unable to write such posts anymore. I'd rather have to get more creative with my jutsu to be effective in combat than accept a condition that prevents me from writing the kind of story I want to tell.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 2:00 am

Mugen, just because you have a maximum jutsu cost per post doesn't mean you need to reach that maximum every post. If we went with say 10cp cap per post for genin w/o counting SC discounts, that would mean a genin that was using as much as he could would last 5 posts in battle before passing out from fatigue. Someone who was conserving his chakra and only used 4-6 chakra per post would last 9-11 posts.


Quote :
Most battle rp posts only cover a few seconds of IC "time" that passes by. And for those, this kind of chakra per post limit makes perfect sense. However, I've had rp posts mid-battle that covered several minutes worth of "time" IC to serve plot purposes before.

i'm pretty sure there is room to allow particular exceptions, such as a lull in the fighting. Those kind of things can be fleshed out when the system is made. like "chakra counter resets for every RP minute in battle or per post" and you would have to put in the spoilers when that lull in the fighting occurred or something to that extent. I'm just shooting out ideas at the moment that are outside the current line of thinking.

remember just because you try to recover in battle before doing more jutsu, doesn't mean the opponent will let you, thus rendering those actions void anyway. It really could be as simple as making and adding an additional academy jutsu and allowing all members to take it for free. Call it (made off the top of my head)

name: battle recovery
rank: e.
chakra cost:0,
description: the user spends 30 seconds molding more chakra. during this time he cannot use any other ability or jutsu other then maintaining lasting jutsu. however, he may still dodge and converse during this time . After the time is up his chakra limit is reset. the user may cancel this at any time.


Although if something like that were used, I'd kinda recommend that lasting jutsu must be paid again, for as you said it covers a longer time period and that for all intents and purposes it would count as a second post as far as jutsu durations and such. It would only be used to mark when in your post you recovered to prevent godmodding and such. And of course, in social rps or friendly spars where it doesn't really matter, it well... doesn't really matter and doesn't have to tracked or anything. Things like events, missions, battles, death-matches, and stuff where your character is in danger it would be used.

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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 5:19 am

Quote :
Mugen, just because you have a maximum jutsu cost per post doesn't mean you need to reach that maximum every post. If we went with say 10cp cap per post for genin w/o counting SC discounts, that would mean a genin that was using as much as he could would last 5 posts in battle before passing out from fatigue. Someone who was conserving his chakra and only used 4-6 chakra per post would last 9-11 posts.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I wrote. But you write it in a way that seems to imply that it's directly in response to something I've said which has me confused.

Quote :
i'm pretty sure there is room to allow particular exceptions, such as a lull in the fighting. Those kind of things can be fleshed out when the system is made. like "chakra counter resets for every RP minute in battle or per post" and you would have to put in the spoilers when that lull in the fighting occurred or something to that extent. I'm just shooting out ideas at the moment that are outside the current line of thinking.

Measuring time in rp is very subjective. I can't see something like that being in place without leading to lots of arguments whenever it becomes a factor.

Also, there might not be any lulls or breaks. One example of the several minutes of post time that I mentioned would be when I had a kage fighting under the influence of a powerful ambient genjutsu on another forum. It drove him to go on a rampage seeing enemies that weren't there and in a single post I covered the use more than a dozen different jutsu and the destruction of an entire town as well as the forest surrounding it. It was all one continuous barrage of very high level jutsu and is probably closer to the situation you mentioned before of using all your chakra in one post. Something that couldn't be done if a max chakra limit per post were adopted.

Quote :
remember just because you try to recover in battle before doing more jutsu, doesn't mean the opponent will let you, thus rendering those actions void anyway. It really could be as simple as making and adding an additional academy jutsu and allowing all members to take it for free. Call it (made off the top of my head)

name: battle recovery
rank: e.
chakra cost:0,
description: the user spends 30 seconds molding more chakra. during this time he cannot use any other ability or jutsu other then maintaining lasting jutsu. however, he may still dodge and converse during this time . After the time is up his chakra limit is reset. the user may cancel this at any time.

This implies that a shinobi pre-molds all their chakra for a certain turn and has to re-mold it during each turn. But this doesn't reflect the IC actions most people take or how shinobi fight in the naruto-verse. Shinobi mold chakra for jutsu as they use them. If they molded it before hand and held onto it until they wanted to cast a jutsu that would require a considerable amount of attention dedicated towards maintaining this molded chakra lest it fade away and end up useless/wasted.

This would impose a game-like system onto IC actions which is something I don't like. I think the only canon example supporting something like this would be the nine-tails needing time to mold more chakra for naruto during the fighting against the ten-tails. But that chakra was used as soon as it was ready so it doesn't really support the idea that chakra is molded and then maintained at the ready for use in any given jutsu.

Quote :
Although if something like that were used, I'd kinda recommend that lasting jutsu must be paid again, for as you said it covers a longer time period and that for all intents and purposes it would count as a second post as far as jutsu durations and such.

Not all jutsu with a duration require upkeep costs. All of the clone jutsu are examples of jutsu that have no duration and no upkeep costs. Here is an example of a ninjutsu that I have approved which has a duration, but no upkeep cost:

Quote :
Name: Rangyoku - Storm Ball
Rank: D
Type: Ninjutsu
Range: Close(0m-3m)
Element: Ranton
Description: The user makes 3 hand signs and then opens their hand molding raiton and suiton simultaneously to produce a ball of ranton in the form of a small black thundercloud. This cloud is only the size of the users hand but is surging with electrical currents and will give whoever touches it a powerful electrical shock that will stun them for a short time(The moment of impact but not to exceed more than one second) or slow them down if they have an endurance SC. Each cloud  simply floats to a space within 1 meter of the user and then lingers without moving again for 3 turns before fading away.
Chakra Cost: 4cp per 5 clouds.

Just because a jutsu is "lasting" it doesn't mean that the shinobi who made it needs to be constantly pumping it full of chakra for it to last. The original cost of chakra used is basically consumed over time instead of all at once.




I'm not trying to dissuade you from making suggestions or coming up with ideas outside the current line of thought. I'm just not fond of this particular idea because I see it creating more problems than it fixes. That's my personal opinion.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 8:34 am

no no no no no no, god no, mugen...

Quote :
Also, there might not be any lulls or breaks. One example of the several minutes of post time that I mentioned would be when I had a kage fighting under the influence of a powerful ambient genjutsu on another forum. It drove him to go on a rampage seeing enemies that weren't there and in a single post I covered the use more than a dozen different jutsu and the destruction of an entire town as well as the forest surrounding it. It was all one continuous barrage of very high level jutsu and is probably closer to the situation you mentioned before of using all your chakra in one post. Something that couldn't be done if a max chakra limit per post were adopted.

i'm pretty sure that would take over 2 mins, and thus would have 4 battle recoveries. the jutsu is only there as a marker and only needs to be used IF needed. for kage's i was thinking about 50-60cp limit a post. I really don't think limiting people to 1/4th to 1/5th max usage of their chakra pool a post is that limiting. Right now you are trying to twist this into something it's not. Your example would not be "in battle" with another's character. He would be vs at best npc's that the rp'r would control. As I said, Should someone interrupt him at contest his actions.... THEN and only THEN would he need to start using that as he RPs his actions. Someone just being in the thread isn't contesting you. Someone in the thread tracking you, isn't contesting you. Someone in the thread that was tracking you and then attacks you to interrupt your continued destruction IS contesting you and would from that point on would require you to list the jutsu in spoilers and make note at the specific points of your post to track when you are letting more then a few seconds pass in a thread without actively controlling the individual movements every second or such.. Get where I'm getting at. It's a marker, nothing more. A way of saying, "I now have more chakra because enough time has passed" after a sentence or at the beginning of a paragraph. And should an opponent interrupt your post and render your future actions invalid due to their post

(example: you cast shadow clones and then after chasing an opponent with the clones, using the lull to reset your chakra usage and you would mark it in the spoilers as such, then your shadow clone begins to cast this large jutsu at the opponent while you flank him from the right..

The opponent then replies that as you begin to chase him he sets off a trap of explosive tags on the trees around you, before dashing into the smoke and attacking the two of you at close range.)

In that situation, the opponent attacked you before your shadow clone could cast the jutsu and you could attack the flank. He also interrupted your "lull". However when you reply, you will once again have your chakra usage restored((because it's a new post)) and if you decide, can continue with the chain of events you had originally typed out by dodging set explosion and having your clone cast the jutsu as he charges you blindly, while you flank him....

nothing changes. Your reply begins with full chakra usage once again.

Quote :
Not all jutsu with a duration require upkeep costs. All of the clone jutsu are examples of jutsu that have no duration and no upkeep costs. Here is an example of a ninjutsu that I have approved which has a duration, but no upkeep cost:

never claimed that they do... 2x of 0 is still 0. however just like with the above example. Should you use a jutsu that lasts say 5 posts in the above example. your first post would initially count as 2 posts. If the opponent didn't interrupt the events after your "marked" lull. then on your next post it would be 3 posts remaining. However, sense he did interrupt your lull and only the first part of the post became the chain of events, it would be 4 posts remaining on your next post. It all depends on how your opponent/and the others in the thread/ respond to the events in your thread. And once again, this is only for important stuff. Just screwing around in social stuff or friendly spars or threads where you're not really in danger, or crap like that. Do what you want. For official events, High ranked missions, deathmatches, etc where every action is important. Then, yeah, worry about structure and such. Its not hard to mark in your thread when time is passing to allow for it.

Think of it more as being in and out of combat within one thread. if you step "out of combat" for any point in time, your chakra usage is reset. And to be put "in combat" your post has to be contested by someone. make more sense?

Things like my Samurai Sabre technique would have additional post cost because I pay per post for upkeep, And sense I'm effectively keeping it up for more then one post within that post by using that recovery or w/e, I'd pay for that additional cost. However, just like the above, If the events in that post are interrupted by someone else causing my chain of events to be altered and the additional parts of my post to be void then that additional cost would be refunded back and paid in my next post instead. It's strange to explain without an actual example thread to reference. It may look confusing, but once you see it, it would make sense.

anyway next......

Quote :
I'm just not fond of this particular idea because I see it creating more problems than it fixes. That's my personal opinion.

so being limited to one jutsu at a time is PREFERABLE to being able to cast multiple jutsu at once through a cap.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 10:25 am

In case we bring up an amount of chakra that can be used per post, I want to say NO!
NO!!
NOO!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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Ruka
Ruka

Age : 28
Posts : 1494

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 11:29 am

Hiruzen wrote:
In case we bring up an amount of chakra that can be used per post, I want to say NO!
NO!!
NOO!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


Just butting my round butt in...

Basically that. I'd advise to stop limiting the amount of chakra or jutsu used at a single time AS AN UNWRITTEN RULE that is passed by through hearsay and is enforced despite not even being official. I'd rather have it being there but enforced in combat only when it makes no sense, for example: User uses a high ranking technique, say a genjutsu that locks the opponent down, genjutsu require constant chakra "transmission" and complicated manipulation of one's own chakra inside another's system, it's only logical to assume that no other techniques could be performed by the User while he/she is using said technique WITHOUT cancelling said technique.

IMO it should be kept just like the current dodging system on US - if you have problems with something, you complain, other than that it's completely unlimited (I've voiced my dissatisfaction with that many times in the past but I won't return to that old boat as I've still not discovered a way to, I quote, "Stop sucking" as I was advised to do when I did bring it up). So since US is so heavy on purely evaluation and argumentation as a criteria what can or cannot be pulled off, it'd only make sense to stop limiting creativity of the writers and let them pull off crazy shit and only worry about it when it becomes a problem and someone complains. As an eval mod I always beat down points for "highly unlikely" or just straight out "impossible" stuff happening in topics, it's just that not many topics with such stuff happened recently to come to mind...

Anyways, my opinion was stated, I'm butting off!

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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 12:05 pm

^

Pretty much that. Do not limit the use of chakra or dodging or shit like that, or I swear to god that I will kill every last soul on US.

#WeAreThe99%
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 2:02 pm

i wasn't going to limit dodging or anything like that...  but like comeon, there is a limit of doing too many actions in a post. IF i tried doing 47 fireball jutsu in one post to completely extend all of my chakra. There is no way that would fly. Besides, Hiru, how often do you spend more then 60 chakra in a post while someone else trys to stop you and actually succeed in doing all of those actions without requiring a second post or a third post or a Fourth? AND doing all of that chakra exp expenditure within 1/2 a minute.

I really think ya'll are being ridiculous and unrealistic about it. Using hypothetical situations that would rarely ever be affected if ever, and think that it's censoring your freedom when it's actually the inverse by giving you infinitely more possible combinations and creativity in creating jutsu and using jutsu.

Ya'll are sitting here complaining about the 1 jutsu at a time hidden rule, and you all are aluding to the fact you just want it removed. But you've conceded the fact that it would destroy balance on the site.  So how do you do both? You compromise. I feel like i'm watching fox news with so much fear-mongering being thrown.  In almost every situation you could think of this would work and solve EVERYTHING this thread is trying to do.

If it negatively effects 1 post out of 500 or so... i'm fine with that for the 499 it can improve upon.

Quote :
it'd only make sense to stop limiting creativity of the writers and let them pull off crazy shit and only worry about it when it becomes a problem and someone complains.

Cause I'll tell you what... RIGHT NOW my creativity is being limited with the current rule in place. Screw what effects any system gets put in to solve it... Right now, its limited. And as a genin with a practically endless supply of chakra I would rather be limited to 10 chakra a post and be able to stratigize properly then remain completely fucked in battle because I have to keep my SST tech channeled and be left flat footed.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 2:20 pm

@Crono

Your post didn't really make it clear to me that you were talking about the number of times this battle refresh jutsu was used in regards to jutsu with durations needing multiple costs. Now that you clarified that, it makes more sense.

However, none of your arguments have served to convince me that this wouldn't create more problems and complications than it would solve. I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you here. I will point out one thing though.

Quote :
so being limited to one jutsu at a time is PREFERABLE to being able to cast multiple jutsu at once through a cap.

We aren't limited to one jutsu at a time currently. So long as you aren't funding an upkeep, you can have two, five, even a dozen jutsu functioning at once. The only way in which we are limited in multiple jutsu is if we try to cast one while an upkept jutsu is already in use. I find this much more preferable than having to keep track of chakra limits per post, time elapsed per post, all just so everyone and their momma can be a little more OP by wielding giant susanoo clones to defend them while they fire S-rank bijuu bomb clones and laugh as the world burns down around them. <- That's an exagerration of course, but I know at least two people who already have jutsu that would allow them to do this. -Stares silently at Ruka and Hiruzen-


@Ruka

I'm half inclined to agree with you, but the fears of abuse that I've already mentioned keep me rooted in believing that the multiple jutsu limitation is for the best. Besides, there is already enough complaints about staff favoritism running around the site smouldering beneath the surface. I'm not sure deferring all complaints around this to staff judgement would help that image.




@Everyone

To prevent myself from becoming a broken record, I'm going to try and gracefully exit the discussion here with my final opinion on the matter. The course of the talks has led me to come to a conclusion that I'm not 100% happy with, but feel would get the general problem of the unwritten rule crap solved. It's more or less what Alex/TwinnyPuppy suggested.

Have the written guideline that if a non-exception jutsu with an upkeep is in use, that upkeep must be stopped before a new jutsu can be performed. Note that if a Jutsu can be moved around or otherwise manipulated in any way after execution, that it requires an upkeep.

Next to this have a dedicated list which sets a number of known exceptions. Academy Jutsu, Clan Doujutsu, Certain Medical Jutsu, The Basic Puppetry Jutsu etc. This list would be updated with new custom jutsu that are deemed fitting on a case by case basis with the limitation that they can't be directly offensive or defensive and must have a somewhat basic application of chakra control. No complex shape manipulation or anything of the sort.(Rejoice Crono, your precious SST would fit these criteria and be eligible for exemption status.)

All of this would fit quite nicely on the jutsu systems page.

There ya go, that's my stance on the matter. Whether it's adopted or not, I hope that a reasonable solution comes to light sooner or later.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 2:24 pm

Crono wrote:
I really think ya'll are being ridiculous and unrealistic about it.

Said the guy that came up with a "47 fireballs" example. Here on US, most people know how to fight and how to not overdo things. I'd like to believe people are being Very realistic. If you look at the fights I have been in so far with people like Travis, Ancladar, Daedalus etc etc, you can see that people are actually being incredibly realistic and describe their attacks and moves in detail. At best, people use two, sometimes three attacks in a thread, usually one of them being a "If everything went according to plan, attack3 would be executed as well". I see absolutely no reason to limit people in their combat posts. If someone is overdoing it and you feel like you are being wronged by it, you can contact a member of staff to look at it.

I also think this whole thing is incredibly off-topic, seeing as it was at one point about jutsu being able to work as a foundation for a secondary jutsu that acts as a spin-off like Joey to Friends, but more successful, as well as which jutsu could and could not be used together with another such as Doujutsu and Water Walking.

@Mugen
I can work with that, at least for now.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 2:58 pm

The only thing that would change mugen is that people would just have to adjust to it. Maybe learn how to restructure their posts to fit the system.


Quote :
This list would be updated with new custom jutsu that are deemed fitting on a case by case basis with the limitation that they can't be directly offensive or defensive and must have a somewhat basic application of chakra control. No complex shape manipulation or anything of the sort.(Rejoice Crono, your precious SST would fit these criteria and be eligible for exemption status.))


except,

Quote :
A-Rank. Can imbue their weapon with an elemental nature that they possess as well as be able to better control the shape of the charka to make even more complex objects, such as a cage or a giant shield.  


It wasn't until this thread I realized I couldn't even use this in conjunction with it.

Spoiler:
 

god forbid if I make Gobi's signature jutsu and steam armor to use Boil Release: Unrivaled Strength and try to continue to use other steam jutsu while it's active, utilizing the steam in te suit. Such as one that would shoot steam through the ground to try to cause it to erupt underneath the opponent like a volcano. Or maybe one where I send steam up into the atmosphere so it chills and condenses into hail that rains down on the field.((kinda like that one oil clone jutsu the dead mizukage used in the shinobi war))

Meh, i'm tired so   /endrant  

@hiruzen, those 47 jutsu I mentioned in my last post... I forgot to mention that I also would have to do them all within 30 secs, seals and all to be limited in the way you are thinking it is.... and even in the new system I could still do it. it would just take me about 12-13 minutes of RP time to preform them all in one post. doing about 4 fireballs per min.

Quote :
At best, people use two, sometimes three attacks in a thread, usually one of them being a "If everything went according to plan, attack3 would be executed as well". I see absolutely no reason to limit people in their combat posts.


And what you are saying is that those 2-3 attacks wouldn't be possible under this system? That they couldn't do that?  I'm saying its ALL possible. Go ahead, give me an example post, that someone actually wrote, that this system would restrict and prove it flawed. Please.. You, ruka and mugen keep saying that it would be limiting to people... what people, what posts, proof... show me proof that this system would not work. No hypothetical. Please, just 1 post.. just 1. And i'll drop the subject forever If I can't make it work under the system.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule Vide
PostSubject: Re: On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule On The Subject Of the "One Jutsu At A Time Rule EmptyThu 23 Apr 2015, 3:12 pm

The one post


You are literally the only person who talks about abusing something we have used here since the dawn of time. Everyone who remotely knows how to combat Rp knows how to write up a post without casting 47 fireballs in 30 seconds. You feel the need to bring this up, even though there has never been a case of someone pulling too many things in one post. Say what you want about US, but the people here are perfectly reasonable in most cases and are very realistic about their posts, even though it is a world where people spit fire and shit lightning.

There is simply no need for a system such as this at all, and it goes to show that it is not needed because no one is agreeing with you on the need for such a system. Personally, Combat RP is my favorite kind of RP because it requires strategy and planning instead of just saying one thing and doing the other. I am, as things are, one of the people that has been on US the longest (not counting those that have been here since the dawn of US and have gone AFK for months or years at a time). I have been RPing almost non-stop for two years or longer, and I take pride in the fact that I fought most of the promising combat roleplayers on the site while belonging to the group of people that is fairly good at combat RPing. That is why I can quite honestly say that a system like this really is not needed.

As for your Unrivaled Strength bit, things like that are not allowed on US. The only kind of defenses we allow are defenses that simply defend. It is for that reason that Earth Spear, Lightning Release Armor, Lava Release Armor and things similar to it are banned. US is not big on physique-increasing techniques, it is not big on defenses and does not really like it when one technique does more than one thing. It is for that reason that we do not get lightning armor jutsu that protect us from lightning based attacks, dish out lightning damage and increase our synapses and physical speed to accommodate for all the chakra you'd burn.

In short, things like Unrivaled Strength do not work on US and will not be approved on US.
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