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US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions

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lifeanddeath
lifeanddeath

Age : 27
Posts : 1490

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PostSubject: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 10:28 pm

Ultimate Shinobi 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions I:

Having just announced my less than triumphant return, I figured what better way to kick it off with a bang (of sorts).

Now it has been pretty well known that I've had a number of concepts I have wished to implement since initially taking upon the role of an Admin, but (as it is also well known) a variety of circumstances, lacking motivation, distractions and no small amount of laziness have prevented them from coming to fruition. That being said everyone should know that the bulk of US is in need of a much needed update. The systems as a whole haven't been updated or really heavily edited realistically since Becky was on staff last time which for those that don't know was more than two years ago.

More than most I would like this eventual overhaul and update to reflect the theme of a fresh start between both members and staff, it will allow the two groups to work out the kinks and problems with the old systems and reflect them into a series of brand new and hopefully unique ideas.

Bearing that in mind as this topic follows I will give a general overview of each new concept I proposed that will highlight its key purpose and the general reasoning behind why I would want such a system. Some of the explanations will be more specific than others in that they exist as a more thought out or closely written up concept already, but the goal here is to explain the possible future changes with my beliefs as to why the reflect better upon US as a whole and answer questions in regards to their possible functions and hopefully by the end of the topic, have a few suggestions to add to them as well.

Mind you this topic will be the first of more than a few, with each topic containing only a few systems concepts and each future topic changing in response to the ones previously.


Response Format and Guidelines for Posting:

As I have illuminated recently, the most important part of any process is to get to the same level of understanding and the best way to do this is to make an effort to ease any ignorance you may have about a subject. And how do you do that? By asking questions!

The main purpose of this topic is to allow the entire member-base to ask questions in regards to any of these concepts I have for possible implementation, be it about their specific functions, problematic issues with their usage in RP, implementation issues, or a simple, 'why?' if perhaps we do not see eye to eye about how such a system might be needed.

As a secondary purpose, I would not be adverse to seeing suggestions within this topic, but to ease the amount of clutter and general breaks from the subject matter only if they relate to a system already being proposed, it's not that I don't want to hear your ideas but if they are entirely unrelated it might be best to make a separate FA topic.

Briefly in closing, before I move on to the actual purpose of this topic I just want to say that all responses should be reasonable and ideally calm in approach. Goading, flaming or childlike outburst will likely result in some form of reprimand.


Concept One | Core System
As many of us know there a number of problems in relation to the core mechanics and how they function in regards to the base system of balancing in terms of Character v Character. It's been addressed a number of times, but short of a stat system it's a very difficult thing to fix. As it stands the only thing on US that I consider a  "Core System" is the Special Characteristic System and that is for the following reasons.  Presently and for a long time in the past US has operated using the Special Characteristics as a means of balancing the more 'stat'† based values such as speed, strength, endurance, and chakra; the system is also used to dictate more skill-based progressions such as Specialty based Mastery. In many ways this creates an atmosphere that prohibits you from creating a uniquely versed character, primarily because of A: the meager amount of special characteristics, B: The way the populous of the site is set up, and C: The strict rules in regards to the creation of custom SCs.

After many hours of discussion and many more of consideration I've managed to initially conceptualize a system that takes the 'free-writing' concept that is most commonly associated with the SC system (in that a great many people seem to think that stat systems limit the ability to write or encourage number crunching in the combat situations). This system dubbed the Aptitude and Attribute System™, allows the free writing and easy understanding that is commonly associated with the Special Characteristic System, whilst also allowing for the specifics and balancing ease associated with a 'stat' system. This system will correlate and or replace the following, Ranks, Specialties and Special Characteristics.
System it Replaces: Rank System, SC System and Specialty System
General Info:
The Term 'Stat' is used to depict basic character values such as Speed, Strength, Chakra, Endurance, etc.
+As this correlates with a number of other systems in regards to specialties, it should be considered the main system on US as it will determine how a bulk of the other systems progress and much of the balance issues will be based around the implementation if thhis system.



Concept Two | Traits:
One of the most positive attributes in regards to the Special Characteristic System is that it allows for you to choose which elements you desire to dictate the exact aptitudes of your character. Mind you as I have stated already, this system does not entirely live up to that guise, but when you alter it's functionality it could very well allow for a very unique blend of unique character abilities. As such the Traits system is designed as a replacement to the Special Characteristic System which will allow for a unique blend of abilities granted to your character. This can include, but is not limited to Chakra Sensory, Chakra Suppression, and Elemental or Skill based Mastery.
System it Replaces: Special Characteristic System
General Info:
+This should be looked at as a pseudo replacement to the SC system to be entirely honest, as it will afford many of the same elements, but allow for a greater range of variability than the present system grants.



For the time being these are the two most important concepts (both of which are relatively written out so if further illumination is needed I wouldn't mind elaborating provided it is kept in mind that they are only drafts thus far) I figured it would be best to start of small, but with the two fundamentals as they are the building blocks of everything else.
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Chris
Chris

Age : 24
Posts : 3145

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 10:47 pm

Do we actually have a staff team large or active enough to significantly change how US operates? No offence, but you guys are struggling to cope with customs and evals, so I'm not sure how or when you will have the time to work out a brand new system brand new systems. I'm guessing there is more to these two ideas than what you just presented, but at the same time, there is still a lot to flesh out. It just seems like a project that could take a few months to implement. Which brings up the question - are we going to have a member base by the time this is done and ready to be used?

I hope this meets the format you expected, but if not, delete this I guess?
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lifeanddeath
lifeanddeath

Age : 27
Posts : 1490

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 11:07 pm


So your problem is that things shouldn't attempt to get fixed because other things are falling behind? But if they don't get fixed than things will always be flawed and thus things will always be behind because we (as a site) lack a reasonable fix because some things are nigh impossible to accurately balance or work on without an accurate system change, take summons or the Jins for example which have been 'behind' in terms of their update since before I was on staff the first time.

I wouldn't propose a system change if I didn't have a large portion of the content fleshed out in a relatively efficient manner. It's why I led with only two concepts with more being intended for the future rather than the dozens I have.
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Chris
Chris

Age : 24
Posts : 3145

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 11:16 pm

You know that's not my problem; I'm all for fixing things, but my concern is that this isn't a good time for doing that. You have 2 active mods that barely keep up with the workload. You have been gone for a long time, and I don't how to judge Puppy's activity or availability. When the Staff as a whole can't keep up with the day-to-day tasks, who exactly will work on these new systems? It's a simple problem. Are you and Puppy going to do it by yourselves? If so, and again, this was in my original post, how long will this take? It sounds like something that could take months?

Again, this was in the original post, but can you afford to overhaul a system with 4 people, of which, 2 are super busy with customs and evals? Are you going to suspend customs and evals while the new system is being set up? And if that's the case, do you expect people to stick around while the system is being worked on?

Unless you have everything ready to go up, it just seems like something that would require time and effort. Something that might be better attempted with more than 2-free and 2-busy members of a staff team. That's all.
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lifeanddeath
lifeanddeath

Age : 27
Posts : 1490

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 11:31 pm


I see two mods who have done wonderfully to keep up with an overburdened work load. One of who has taken on a lot of Admin-like duties, another Admin who despite lacking in equal ranking support and one short vacation of his own has done his best to keep up with the work required of him.

I'm not suggesting anyone do any more work than they are willing to take on as it is and as I already said I wouldn't suggest a concept that wasn't reasonably fleshed out for implementation.


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Ruka
Ruka

Age : 28
Posts : 1494

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySat 25 Apr 2015, 11:53 pm

Chris wrote:
Do we actually have a staff team large or active enough to significantly change how US operates? No offence, but you guys are struggling to cope with customs and evals, so I'm not sure how or when you will have the time to work out a brand new system brand new systems. I'm guessing there is more to these two ideas than what you just presented, but at the same time, there is still a lot to flesh out. It just seems like a project that could take a few months to implement. Which brings up the question - are we going to have a member base by the time this is done and ready to be used?

I hope this meets the format you expected, but if not, delete this I guess?

Oy! I take offense to that! :C Either way, better to start working on something to finish in the future now than to wait for "better tomorrow" to start working. Now that I wrote it down your suggestion reminds me of procrastinating which isn't a good thing to do anything at all. Just let things go their way.
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Brett
Brett

Age : 25
Posts : 614

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 12:19 am

Trey wrote:

I see two mods who have done wonderfully to keep up with an overburdened work load. One of who has taken on a lot of Admin-like duties, another Admin who despite lacking in equal ranking support and one short vacation of his own has done his best to keep up with the work required of him.

2 mods isn't enough. I cannot fathom that you really just stated that, as if it were satisfactory. Neutral Ruka and Reggie are doing a good job sure, but they cannot manage their respective areas and be expected to spend any excess time doing their staff work. Spread it out amongst more members to make it a stronger management unit. Doing so offers you guys more feedback from different perspectives too, so it's not detrimental to anything that staff is supposed to be doing.

You should have the head of each area, and maybe 2 supporting staff members. They could be tasked with evaluation reform, and then it could be posted in your comfy staff lounge for discussion and review; the same goes for creations. Then you could have staff members to maintain the site's neatness and organization, because that's also gone to the crapper.

As is, we don't have the staffing to do almost anything we need to, that's what it boils down to.
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TwinnyPuppy
TwinnyPuppy

Age : 26
Posts : 1636

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 12:25 am

Brett wrote:
Trey wrote:

I see two mods who have done wonderfully to keep up with an overburdened work load. One of who has taken on a lot of Admin-like duties, another Admin who despite lacking in equal ranking support and one short vacation of his own has done his best to keep up with the work required of him.

2 mods isn't enough. I cannot fathom that you really just stated that, as if it were satisfactory. Neutral Ruka and Reggie are doing a good job sure, but they cannot manage their respective areas and be expected to spend any excess time doing their staff work. Spread it out amongst more members to make it a stronger management unit. Doing so offers you guys more feedback from different perspectives too, so it's not detrimental to anything that staff is supposed to be doing.

You should have the head of each area, and maybe 2 supporting staff members. They could be tasked with evaluation reform, and then it could be posted in your comfy staff lounge for discussion and review; the same goes for creations. Then you could have staff members to maintain the site's neatness and organization, because that's also gone to the crapper.

As is, we don't have the staffing to do almost anything we need to, that's what it boils down to.

http://www.ultimateshinobi.org/t16300-moderator-sign-ups

We're not going to sit and twiddle our thumbs while we wait for more people to join staff, because that just makes everything worse (everything just stays behind).
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 12:43 am

I've been asked not to leak information, however I've seen the fleshed out prototypes for these two concepts first hand. They are about 70% to 80% complete. Just about all of it is written out and most of what's left is balancing.

As Alex pointed out, there was a very recent update to improve the process by which new staff members are chosen and vetted. This update was a direct result of all the complaints on how lacking we are in active staff members. Time will tell whether or not that update will bear any fruit. But for now, there is no sense telling staff not to work on improving the site because there isn't enough staff. That is a problem that can't be fixed by staff alone and requires members of the forum to step forward and help bolster the team.

In the meantime, I think we should be open discussing the idea of potential improvements.




As for the discussion this thread was started for. I told Trey over skype but I'll repeat my thoughts on the matter here.

Initially I was against this because I misunderstood its purpose. I thought the SC system which I loved so much was being replaced with something else. Instead, aspects of it which have been problematic in the past are being removed from the SC box and given their own unique box in a manner that makes certain aspects of character growth more accessible. Meanwhile SC's would get a new name, but they would more or less remain as we know and love them.

There is merit in talking about the idea while staff re-organizes and tries to train the new trial mods we will(hopefully) get via the latest update.
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Brett
Brett

Age : 25
Posts : 614

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 12:47 am

Alex wrote:
We're not going to sit and twiddle our thumbs while we wait for more people to join staff, because that just makes everything worse (everything just stays behind).

Do note that the thread is locked. Good progress.
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TwinnyPuppy
TwinnyPuppy

Age : 26
Posts : 1636

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 12:56 am

Brett wrote:
Do note that the thread is locked. Good progress.

Good job, Alex. Forgot to unlock it once it was fixed. GG. Surrender @ 20.

It's unlocked now. Proceed to throw stones at me until satisfied. (That's not sarcasm)
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 1:44 pm

As someone who has been working on his character for many, many months, worked hard on making Custom SC, worked out a lot of training threads for SC, I can't help but feel that if such a system is to pass, a lot of existing things will be removed in the near future. Like someone told me in regards to the new rules based on ranking up [Which do not affect me due to my characters already being S rank], "I have worked too hard on my character to have my shit snatched away from under me". A lot of people know very well that I personally do not enjoy it when things suddenly pop up and start eating away at a character that has been worked on for years. To put a name to this for those that think I am talking about Hiruzen, I am in fact talking about Yoroi. We all know that that whole ordeal was handled terribly, and had it not been for Faker taking care of things at the time, I would have left the site a long time ago.

As things are now, I have not really had much of a chance to use Nichirenma due to the plots taking most people to the land of lightning and whatnot, though I have grown to really enjoy Hiruzen. When I see a system that is going to replace big aspects of the site, I can't help but feel like that will greatly cut into the fighting mechanics as well. Combat RP is my favorite kind of RP, and I based Hiruzen's SC on the parts I wanted to really elaborate on so as to make sure that he would be a true force to be reckoned with in Combat Threads. I know other people have been working hard on making things for their characters that are Custom and would most likely not be integrated into a new system made and dictated by others than themselves.

What I would really like to know above all else is, if things are being replaced, will we get a chance to remodel that which we have lost with this new system, or will the things we worked on just be replaced by pre-set things that basically mean "You'll lose your custom stuff and get new stuff, so you'll need to adjust your entire character to it.". I really fear that the last will be the case, and I truly hope that I am wrong, because I would rather burn in hell than have yet another character that I spend many, many months on go to Nerfhell.

I hope you have an answer to my question that will not make all the years I have spent on US pointless, I really do.
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Crono Guardia
Konoha Nin
Crono Guardia

Age : 21
Posts : 175

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptySun 26 Apr 2015, 1:51 pm

Without seeing the actual model of the 2 possible systems, I can't speak either for nor against it. Anything I say would be based upon assumption of what it could have or might be.
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OccupiedLocket
OccupiedLocket

Posts : 288

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PostSubject: Re: US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions US Systems Overhaul Possibilities and Propositions  EmptyWed 29 Apr 2015, 10:18 am

As crono said, I would like to read the prototype. I am all ears for suggestions. I am still upset about rank changes but I failed to see this thread about more system overhauls. I find it refreshing that more than just that aspect is changing. Again though, I would like to see your ideas for SC changes in more detail.

I feel that whatever we do, people who have their current unique SCs somehow converted and keep their status. I been hesitant to pick SCs because for the character I truly want to mold felt somewhat confined combat wise.

How many traits are we talking about? I would like to feel like a kid in a candy store when looking through traits.

Will the combat or chakra system change as well? The SCs overlapped with nearly every aspect of RP in this forum and other areas would definitely need revising. Either way, PC v PC combat is filled with what I feel is way to much uncertainty. I don't think it is possible to count how many times I've known fight threads devolve in Cbox arguing. Both party's may have valid points (mostly coming down to who has the better SCs) but getting admin/mod/outside help is usually needed. With our limited staff, how would these disputes be settled? A more definitive system about what happens is needed (somehow without stifling creativity.)

Again, most of the questions could be erased if I had a blue print to look at.
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