Eval Mercy Rule

Posts : 1729

At the time of this writing, there are three topics in eval that have been sitting there in excess of a month; seeing as the "solved moderator crisis" and streamlined eval system have apparently failed completely to prevent this sort of shenanigans, I purpose an addition to the Eval rules; a mercy rule.

Any eval topic left untouched for, let's say two weeks, automatically gets a full score, no questions asked.

Sound fair?

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

Seeing how at the moment I'm the only person it may concern... I'll withhold my opinion.

Anyways, it might not be such a bad idea to implement in the future if unexpected death occurs and I'll be unable to do evals. Definitely an interesting concept to consider implementing in the future.

(Not that we at Staff have our priorities straight, just saying...)

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I am doing my best to get the hang of both Evaluations and Creations so I can help out with both things, but as things are, Creations are the only thing I feel really comfortable with. I'll try my best to get through them, but keep in mind that I a first-timer when it comes to evaluating the writing of others (Which I feel uncomfortable with because I know my english as a Dutch person is not the best).

That said, I think this mercy rule is in fact quite a fair thing, though I also think two weeks is (I know this may sound weird) too short a period to go on. I'd say three weeks would be more fair for a thing such as this. But, since I am neither a full-mod or an Admin, I don't have a lot of say in the matter.

Age : 28 Posts : 3145

Straight up full score regardless of topic length, post number and etc? That seems extremely generous.

Just read, or skim if you're super lazy, the first post and base the rest of the topic and grade on that. It still saves the mod a ton of work, but isn't as straight up gamey and annoying for other members as is a topic getting 100% by the virtue of not being read.

Posts : 1729

Chris wrote:: Straight up full score regardless of topic length, post number and etc? That seems extremely generous.

Just read, or skim if you're super lazy, the first post and base the rest of the topic and grade on that. It still saves the mod a ton of work, but isn't as straight up gamey and annoying for other members as is a topic getting 100% by the virtue of not being read.

Especially in regards to short topics. It might seem too generous to give full score for a two post topic, but you know what? That just makes it even more inexcusable that two-three weeks later, moderators still haven't looked at it.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

To be completely honest, chances of that even happening to anyone that is not Ruka are extremely small as it is. She gets to things very fast, but since the only other person doing evals is Alexander and sometimes me, she often has to wait longer periods of time. I am not trying to say that it is a solid excuse, but I am not exactly on staff for the Evals job, I was put on for creations work. I have tried to do a couple of evaluations, though as a person with less than perfect grammar, I don't always feel comfortable grading the writing of others.

That said, if a person has to wait three weeks for something to get graded, I think giving the full score should not be that much of a stretch. Again, that is just my personal opinion.

Age : 28 Posts : 3145

No one is blaming you or pointing fingers sheesh.

And I'm adamant that this should not be implemented. Once, getting a 20 out of 20 on an eval was something to aspire to - an impossible feat that few ever pulled off. The new system shat on that somewhat, but I would still prefer to keep that 100% grade at least slightly sacred.

Otherwise, any topic that gets the full points based on this rule, will simply undermine the whole process.

And anyway, it's not like we badly need the points anymore. Not really. So what's the rush Travis?

Posts : 1729

Sanctity of the "perfect grade" my arse. That's been out the window for a while. I've gotten 4 perfect grade topics since the system was implemented. You have three. Probably just about everyone has secured a perfect grade or two under the new system.

What it's about, is establishing a safety net; in a perfect world, such a rule will never need to be enforced, because the circumstances for it will never arise; mods would deal with each topic in a timely, reasonable manner.

If you end up waiting a month or more for eval, you damn well deserve better than "We are so, so sorry we suck so many dicks" from the staff.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

This is not about pointing fingers, this is about saying things as they are. And I can honestly say that Ruka is really the only person actively working on Evaluations because other people are busy with other stuff or something. I can't speak for Alex, so he'll have to do that himself, but aside from Ruka and Alex, there are no Real evaluations people.

As for sanctity of the perfect grade, I've had several of those myself, and I can tell you that the whole sanctity you're talking about has been dead for quite some time now. I just know that people on staff are still members of the site just like you guys, we just took some extra responsibilities to do some work around the site in hopes of making things go more smoothly.

That said, I can't say that I appreciate your tone Travis, especially since some of these members of "Staff" have gotten to your crap the moment you posted it up or only a few hours later. So if you're going to slander people, call them by name and don't drag us all down.

Posts : 1729

You go on unappreciating my tone. Doesn't change the fact that sometimes, shit doesn't get done, and there needs to be a rule firmly establishing a maximum amount of time for shit to be undone before it finally gets done.

And don't bring my "stuff" into this; it is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, ie, long standing evaluations. You wanna bring up Creations shit, feel free to make another topic for it.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

I suppose I'm the one who partially "killed" the "sanctity of the perfect score" since I've handed a couple over my time evaluating soooo....

Awkward... :/

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I'm not going to be here and argue with you, but when you bring stuff up, make sure it is even relevant to the current times. Ruka is pretty much getting to everything in Evaluations before you can even wipe your ass after taking a dump. The only person this would really even apply to would be Ruka, so I guess that unless Alex gets to her Evals, she will be getting a lot of perfect grades.

There are more pressing things to tend, because it is pretty much like Ruka herself said. You'd be making a system for one person right now. and until it actually becomes needed, I don't really feel like it should be all too high on the list of priorities. I'll point Alex and Trey to this thread, because there is not much simple discussion will do anyway as it just slicks down to people attacking other people. Also, I can bring in whatever the hell I want when you bring in all of staff and slander them yet again.

Some of the people in there are actually working hard to make sure people like you get their shit in a timely manner, so you might want to show some respect, if that is at all a concept you are familiar with.

Posts : 1729

It's not an entire system, it's a single rule, likely best added to the Eval System rules. And that's one of the ways rules get made; precedent. "Oh hey, this situation has never occurred before. Let's make a new rule so we know how to deal with it in the future." Ie, someone got stuck waiting a month, until a whole FA topic was made; for their topics to get evalled; let's establish a preventative rule so this doesn't happen again.

And remember to breath every once and a while, Vergil. All that brown-nosing can't be good for your health.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

Kay, I'd like to just say that it would be better if we managed this thread with no "c", "f" words or any synonim of bodily parts or human excrements. This gives the thread a bit more credibility and makes it more likely to be taken seriously, also PLEASE try to stay on point and keep yourselves from making personal observations, not completely because they are offensive (at times) but because they lead to other people returning the favor, usually offensively at this stage. So:

*) Stop cursing and be respectful,

*) Speak on point, try to not mention any names unless making a point and having no other way without doing so.

Thank you.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

-Is always one or two points away from a perfect score-

T.T

Y u do dis to me Ruka? Is it because I'm white? I grew up in a poor home, I'm not "privileged" I swear!

Jk, I know it's cause I never spelling/grammar check my posts.

-------

Anyways, on topic. I've got mixed feelings about this, but so long as the time exceeds two weeks I can't think of a reason to say the player shouldn't be compensated.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the idea if instead of full points, you got like...five points less than that. It's still better than getting nothing and for some RPer could still end up being potentially more points than they would have gotten otherwise.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

@Mugen:

Imagine for a moment if you will that a gun wielding maniac breaks into my home, naturally, knowing he's broken into a home already the bastard decides to go all the way and moyders me for bunch of fish sticks in my fridge (not too hard to believe in this neighborhood). Anyways, in that paralel universe, imagine someone like Travis (this personal observation has a point), who probably hasn't gotten a score lower than 29 in his entire life (see, there's the point!), writes a topic and puts it up for evals.

Since I'm busy being dead and Alex is busy doing whatever he's busy doing usually and Elsa is busy being too intimidated by grading a topic ever again after having graded a topic, he waits for 5 or so weeks before making an FA topic demanding his rightfully earned points because he has to buy an S rank technique to horribly murder people as he is known to do. Do you honestly think he (or anyone else with high RPing standards) will settle for 25 points (a score I don't remember ever giving anyone) just because I am in a ditch somewhere, Elsa is in PTSD after evaling that one topic and Alex is busy with Admin stuff? On an unrelated note ask yourself is it fair to do so? No, he will neither settle for it, nor is it fair to give people out lower scores for topics they've already never had looked at for extended periods of time in the first place.

So my answer is - either implement the system the way Travis suggests it, or don't implement it at all seeing how until the day comes a stranger dumps my body in the woods I am the only one whom this problem concerns.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

I think it's entirely fair to do so and it doesn't matter whether or not the person getting a 25 accepts it. If that is the rule then that is what they would be getting and any amount of butthurt they get over it is kind of pointless. The point is that the thread is not being graded at all. Therefore, it is impossible to know if the individual truly obtained a full score no matter how good their track record is.

Imagine the same scenario but at the same time Travis put his threads up for eval, so did 6 other people and among them, at least two have horrible crap posts. Do they deserve to get a 30 as well? Is that really fair?

I don't feel comfortable that a thread no being checked gets full points because it took a long time. It wouldn't be easy to abuse by any means, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

To me as a law-student it makes perfect sense, the authority does not manage to keep things in check, the principles of just expectations of the individual are broken, the person expects that their topic is going to be looked at and rated within a reasonable time period just like the rules state, but it is not. The authority, in other words, the Staff messes up, so the player should be the LAST person to pay the price for it. He/She needs to be rightfully compensated for the effort they've put in as well as for the time that it had taken for his/her stuff to be given a look at. I don't understand why it makes no sense to you. If Staff messes up, they have to answer for it and compensate the mess-up in full, not just toss a miniscule amount of points and give the message that it's somehow the player's fault that their topics weren't looked at, there's a possibly lower rating than they're worth anyways (after waiting for a month or so).

To me giving them any less than maximum amount of points makes no sense. That is why my position is - either do it with max points (the point bonus serving as a compensation for the extra time waited), or do not implement it at all and just leave it as it is, leave it to self regulation as there is no need to give people lower amount of points than maximum by default.

Allow me to tell you guys how I evaluate the topic, I start with the presumption that all topics are perfect, rated 30 points, call this principle the "Presumption of Perfection". According to this principle everyone is perfect and writes perfect things (similarly to how in court in criminal cases everyone is assumed to be innocent, we're dealing with actual people so there is no reason whatsoever to automatically assume that they are anything less than exemplary). As I read the topic, most of the time I notice some flaws, be it grammar issues, structure, flow etc. Initially I just dismiss them, no one is perfect, everyone is human and makes one or two mistakes from time to time. At some point the flaws become too obvious to ignore and then the score starts to suffer, the "Presumption of Perfection" is broken and the RPer loses some points.

It makes no sense to automatically assume that everyone is below mediocre, I don't remember anyone getting a score as low as 25 ever since the new system was introduced, I think the score average is about 27. Why should our presumption of the player's skill start at below average? Doesn't it give unfair assumptions looking from the point of the player who has already suffered by none other's hand but the Staff? Yes it does. When dealing with people, one must always assume that they are worth nothing less than perfect score, we then attempt to prove that the score is worth less and as we prove so the score degrades. As such the least amount of "rights" are broken (in reality we break no rights, to what I refer as "rights" in this context is how fairly the player is treated, please note that significant obstruction of said rights lead to the player "having had enough and leaving" which is an unacceptable outcome for Staff members).

If we just assume everyone is worth below average, we impose upon the fair treatment of EVERYONE who goes through this situation, people have already suffered enough for having to wait too long for something that the Staff is responsible for doing and as such need to be compensated for Staff's inaction, which extra points to their grade might just do.

Age : 33 Posts : 718

I inherently disagree with your philosophy, however I'm not here to argue ideologies. I gave my opinion and remain unmoved. That being said, I don't feel super strongly about this and am not going to fight tooth an nail over it.

Posts : 1729

Mugen Kousen wrote:: I think it's entirely fair to do so and it doesn't matter whether or not the person getting a 25 accepts it. If that is the rule then that is what they would be getting and any amount of butthurt they get over it is kind of pointless. The point is that the thread is not being graded at all. Therefore, it is impossible to know if the individual truly obtained a full score no matter how good their track record is.

Imagine the same scenario but at the same time Travis put his threads up for eval, so did 6 other people and among them, at least two have horrible crap posts. Do they deserve to get a 30 as well? Is that really fair?

I don't feel comfortable that a thread no being checked gets full points because it took a long time. It wouldn't be easy to abuse by any means, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

"That's the rule, and if you don't like it, eat shit?" Really now.

"Do they deserve to get a 30 as well? Is that really fair?" You know what's even less not-fair in that scenario? Waiting nearly two damned months to get evalled.

Maybe people will put out short, crappy, terrible topics, yes- but so long as staff is on top of things, this rule would not be needed. If staff fails to keep on top of things, then the userbase (Even if for now, it only really concerns Ruka) deserves more than a shrug of the shoulders and "We tried, man."

Age : 33 Posts : 718

Great job mischaracterizing me. But I'm just going to quote this.

Mugen Kousen wrote:: I inherently disagree with your philosophy, however I'm not here to argue ideologies. I gave my opinion and remain unmoved. That being said, I don't feel super strongly about this and am not going to fight tooth an nail over it.

I had no reason to post in this thread again beyond that. So stop antagonizing me unless you actually WANT discussion threads on US to degrade into pissing contests as they often do.

Age : 31 Posts : 1495

Both of your points have been made clear. Do not take this any further. Please stay on topic. (Not that I wish to imply you haven't but it's about to go awry based on me seeing every other FA topic going awry)

Age : 28 Posts : 3145

Ruka stop getting in the way of entertaining topics D< let people fight. It's just about the only fun thing left on this site

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I don't think any actually useful posts will be made from this point on, so we might as well lock it and have the Admins look at it. Pretty much the only way to get things done while also making sure no unrelated posts or slandering posts are being made again.

With that in mind, this thread is Locked until an Admin can get to it.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Not going to be a thing. Solved.