[Debate] Sasuke, Naruto, Pain, Danzo

Posts : 28

I saw this debate on another site. I figured that it would be great to discuss it with my new RP friends! Anyways, bring your well thought out arguments [Debate] Sasuke, Naruto, Pain, Danzo 815275

[Debate] Sasuke, Naruto, Pain, Danzo 815275

and debate hard! (lol) Also let's adhere to the rules so this doesn't get out of hand.

The reason the title is as it is, is due to the fact that I want to discuss the power levels of these characters. So I'm going to jump right into my argument.

Danzo is stronger than Pain. Yes, Pain, all six of them. Had Danzo been placed in Naruto's situation, he would have been able to defeat Pain. How can I make such an "outrageous" claim? Well let's look at Danzo. Danzo is able to use a technique that allows him to respawn wherever he wants and negate any damage taken. Izanagi, allows such power through the use of Sharingan. [1] In those ten minutes, Danzo can do whatever he wants.

We also know that Pain has weaknesses.

Deva Path
1. Shinra Tensei has a 5 second interval as a weakness. [1]
2. The more Shinra is used, the longer the down time. [2]

Animal Path
1. Can only use "boss" summons. It's disadvantage are situations were mobility is limited. [1]

Preta Path
1. Susceptible to taijutsu. [1]
2. Absorption is done consciously. It isn't automatic. What I am saying here he can be caught off guard and attacked, just like any other person. [2]

Human Path
1. Very weak to taijutsu. Jiraiya wasn't even molding Sage Chakra. [1]

Asura Path
1. Missles don't necessarily work on a target who in theory "can't die." He was the only one destroyed twice in the same arc. Once by Kakashi's Raikiri and another by Naruto's Rasengan.

Naraka Path
1. Possess no real active battle strategy and is used as an on field medic. Similar to Karin. Was outsmarted by a genin. [1] [2] [3] [4]

With Izanagi, Danzo can simply do whatever he wants. The moment he is hit by any of these techniques, he can pretend it ever happened with Izanagi (literally speaking), respawn behind them and out of their sight line and go for the kill. It's like a tactical insertion from Black Ops (COD) but way better. [Tactical Insertion]

However this also means MS Sasuke is stronger than Pain as well.
What do you think?

Posts : 64

Nah, Pain can wreck anybody. He had just finished fighting and destroying a whole village, the amount of chakra Nagato had to use was enormous. If he focused all his chakra into one battle, he could own. Even if he knew the weaknesses, Nagato was op as hell and could of owned Danzou, regardless of sharingan.

Age : 29 Posts : 766

Danzo would only be able to do this for 110 minutes due to the 11 Sharingan he posseses. If his attacks were spotted by Pains' eyes which lets' not forget can see barriers, Danzo's attacks would have to strick fast. Besides he never had the intel Naruto had on the paths, so Danzo would be literatly screwed in such a manner Izangi would be the only way to win. As for Sasuke, He could'nt take on all 6 paths like Danzo. Sasuke doesn't have the chakra for it. He can hardly use Susano'o as it is. I would rant more but I can't.

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

I dunno about this, its certainly possible but I wouldn't put my money on anybody because to be honest, I don't think Pain is as all mighty as everybody makes him out to be. LOLUMADFANBOIS?!

Posts : 28

Jastrok wrote:: Nah, Pain can wreck anybody. He had just finished fighting and destroying a whole village, the amount of chakra Nagato had to use was enormous. If he focused all his chakra into one battle, he could own. Even if he knew the weaknesses, Nagato was op as hell and could of owned Danzou, regardless of sharingan.

Well we all have our opinions, but our opinions don't necessarily write the manga. Nagato had a massive amount of chakra, but that doesn't mean anything.

Mass amount of chakra! = Win any battle.

Sure chakra can help you win a battle, but you can still loose no matter how much chakra you have. Killer Bee almost lost because he had a massive amount of chakra (Having that large an excess amount made it easier on Samehada). If we assume that just because you have a massive amount of chakra that you will win, then the Juubi should still exist.

And claiming OP is just going to have us going around in circles. I am discussing events inside of the manga. However I have a question to ask. How can you deny that Danzo has the ability to negate damage and simply attack? Remember he only didn't own Sasuke because of Susano'o which he could not pierce through.

Susano'o's Defense:

Danzo had no trouble putting hands on Sasuke once Susano'o was dropped.

Danzo's Seal:

Posts : 28

Adam wrote:: I dunno about this, its certainly possible but I wouldn't put my money on anybody because to be honest, I don't think Pain is as all mighty as everybody makes him out to be. LOLUMADFANBOIS?!

Dude... You are my type of poster!

Spoiler:

Leighton wrote:: Danzo would only be able to do this for 110 minutes due to the 11 Sharingan he posseses. If his attacks were spotted by Pains' eyes which lets' not forget can see barriers, Danzo's attacks would have to strick fast. Besides he never had the intel Naruto had on the paths, so Danzo would be literatly screwed in such a manner Izangi would be the only way to win. As for Sasuke, He could'nt take on all 6 paths like Danzo. Sasuke doesn't have the chakra for it. He can hardly use Susano'o as it is. I would rant more but I can't.

Nope, one Sharingan only last for one minute. So Danzo would only have 11 minutes. (Maybe a typo?) This is also assuming he doesn't stop Izanagi, and has it on from start to finish.

Izanagi Last for a Minute (per eye):

That's 10 minutes of "pseudo immortality." He can just do whatever he wants, when ever he wants. In my eyes, the only issue is hungry ghost realm. The rest, he can easily behead them. The reason why I'm making it seem so easy is because of Izanagi. It gives you the ability to strike your opponent without the fear of death. Even for Pain who were nothing more than dead puppets, they still could not tank any attack. (Refer to Naruto assuming that Fat Pain had been killed, and Fat Pain had to be revived by Naraka Path.)

Danzo doesn't have to worry about dying for 10 minutes. Information gathering means nothing if you can just wish your opponents attacks away and appear out of their line of site.

Easy win. Danzo was weak to Sasuke's genjutsu which fooled him on the last eye:

Out of Line of Sight:

About the Rinnegans chakra perception (barriers). It sucks. It's worse than Sharingan.

Subject: Re: [Debate] Sasuke, Naruto, Pain, Danzo Wed 06 Apr 2011, 5:31 am

I can imagine Danzo would have a very good chance in defeating Pein, with the advantages of Izanagi to warp the boundary between reality and illusion. Naruto had a slight advantage due to Jiraiy but even with Jiraiya he could've easily handled the six if he had fought them all at once or had just a little more time. Because of Danzo skill (and we assume he is fighting all of them at once) he has advantage seeing that he has a bit of high intellect on his side (We can assume that he has this being one of the most shady people in the Naruto Universe) and it certainly wouldn't take long for him to figure out the patterns of the Six Peins.

Sure, Pein has a large quantity of chakra but that means little in a battle. Physically? Oh, Pein has an advantage. He has the ability to manipulate the gravity around him a. Even with Danzo's knowledge of ninjutsu, Pein has him beat with that. Pein had to use tactics that were more brutal against Naruto because A) He was in Sage Mode during his fight and B) He's the Jinchuuriki for the Kyuubi, the strongest Bijuu out of them all. (But then again, he was brutal BEFORE he fought the Kyuubi and perhaps he convinced himself that he WAS a god and that tactics were simply out of the question.)

Danzo has that advantage with the boundaries. Even if Pein realizes that he is able to do that, there isn't a simple way to counter that. When you lean towards space/time/reality, you realize that even the strongest of people will have to subcome to that. Pein affects the physical and spiritual realm swhile Danzo can effect his own plain of existence which neutralizes the physical and spiritual realm Pein can manipulate.

I also have to say that Danzo's defeat was more or less due to Sasuke's Main Character Syndrome. Regardless of him becoming a part of the antagonist group and obtaining the mangekyo sharingan and the "perfect" Susano 'o'. Regardless if wasn't main character status and he somehow managed to defeat Danzo out of skill alone and not MCS, he wouldn't have come out unscathed like he did. So to say that Sasuke could defeat Pein is more or less a shallow argument.

Posts : 28

@ Sasuke being stronger than Pain.

Remember it doesn't matter what technique you use or how you use it. In a battle of life and death, no one says "I'm tellin Adam, cuz u used and OP technnique!" No one hollers "Susano'o isn't fair!!!" They all deal with it and try to win.

Sasuke's MS form (pre EMS) was supposedly stronger than Pain. This is backed by three important people. Zetsu, Madara, and Naruto himself.

At the end of the day, no matter how we can complain about who had more intel or what would have happened, Kishimoto implied that Naruto became stronger than Pain by defeating him. This was boosted by Zetsu's opinion. Pain even personally admitted that Naruto was one of the strongest (if not the strongest) opponent's he'd ever faced.

Pain comments on Naruto's strength:

Zetsu indirectly puts Naruto as superior to Pain:

The reason why pain and Zetsu matter is because if Kishimoto didn't want Naruto to be stronger than Pain, why would he have him surpass Jiraiya with Sage Mode, have pain comment on his strength, and have Zetsu comment that he was stronger? It seems the writer wants us to think that Naruto was stronger than Pain.

But we're talking about Sasuke being stronger than Pain.. right.

Madara also states Sasuke's plain to become superior to Nagato. He had already planned on guiding him to become stronger.

Madara's compares Nagato and Sasuke's potential:

The issue was never the fact that Sasuke wouldn't become stronger than Nagato, moreso that he couldn't control Sasuke.

After having defeated Pain, Naruto acknowledges that he could not defeat Sasuke. Kiba makes the conclusion that Naruto is strong for beating Pain, but Naruto assumes he is weaker.

Naruto, after being put superior to Pain, still claims to be inferior to Sasuke:

Posts : 28

Trickster Polymath wrote:: I can imagine Danzo would have a very good chance in defeating Pein, with the advantages of Izanagi to warp the boundary between reality and illusion. Naruto had a slight advantage due to Jiraiy but even with Jiraiya he could've easily handled the six if he had fought them all at once or had just a little more time. Because of Danzo skill (and we assume he is fighting all of them at once) he has advantage seeing that he has a bit of high intellect on his side (We can assume that he has this being one of the most shady people in the Naruto Universe) and it certainly wouldn't take long for him to figure out the patterns of the Six Peins.

Sure, Pein has a large quantity of chakra but that means little in a battle. Physically? Oh, Pein has an advantage. He has the ability to manipulate the gravity around him a. Even with Danzo's knowledge of ninjutsu, Pein has him beat with that. Pein had to use tactics that were more brutal against Naruto because A) He was in Sage Mode during his fight and B) He's the Jinchuuriki for the Kyuubi, the strongest Bijuu out of them all. (But then again, he was brutal BEFORE he fought the Kyuubi and perhaps he convinced himself that he WAS a god and that tactics were simply out of the question.)

Danzo has that advantage with the boundaries. Even if Pein realizes that he is able to do that, there isn't a simple way to counter that. When you lean towards space/time/reality, you realize that even the strongest of people will have to subcome to that. Pein affects the physical and spiritual realm swhile Danzo can effect his own plain of existence which neutralizes the physical and spiritual realm Pein can manipulate.

I also have to say that Danzo's defeat was more or less due to Sasuke's Main Character Syndrome. Regardless of him becoming a part of the antagonist group and obtaining the mangekyo sharingan and the "perfect" Susano 'o'. Regardless if wasn't main character status and he somehow managed to defeat Danzo out of skill alone and not MCS, he wouldn't have come out unscathed like he did. So to say that Sasuke could defeat Pein is more or less a shallow argument.

Yeah, I'd like to add on to that first bold. Naruto went through Sage Mode twice, then the Kyuubi's chakra and then Sage Mode again. Nagato had enough chakra after his large scale Shinra Tensei... But still lost against Pain. Chakra Amount does not equal the win.

Well I don't necessarily agree with MCS, but I understand your implication. What I mean to say is that, if Sasuke didn't have the tools to keep Danzo from attacking close range he would have lost. I showed ths in a previous post where I show that Danzo had no issue touching Sasuke directly once Susano'o was down. However, Sasuke was probably the only one that could have defeated Danzo like he did. At least in the fact that any one with superior jutsu above normal Sharingan could have defeated Danzo, with only similar tools that Sasuke had.

Danzo lost to an illusion because he isn't an Uchiha. It's plain and simple. In a battle between eyes, the one with the stronger Sharingan has a better chance of coming out on top.

Non Sharingan Users are weaker than Sharingan users (in some cases):

Sasuke wouldn't have as much of an issue with Pain as people think he would.

Genjutsu

Though he isn't proficient with genjutsu as say Itachi was, Pain is vulnerable to genjutsu. Not Nagato himself, but at least the Pain's in direct combat.

Spoiler:

Sasuke has a genjutsu which roughly operates in the same way, except that it overloads the opponent with his chakra.

Spoiler:

The genjutsu are synonymous in that the both require a time to prepare, but Sasuke's needs more of a distraction than the frogs and the frogs' genjutsu is easier to activate. However, we cannot deny that Sasuke is capable of using genjutsu against Pain to temporarily immobilize one of them.

Amaterasu

Amaterasu converges on whatever the user is looking at. I was under the misconception that it fires from the eyes, but it actually appear wherever Sasuke is looking. It is similar to Kakashi's own technique, but more like a reverse if that makes sense. They are synonymous in that as long as the user can maintain sight of the opponent, the jutsu can work. Amaterasu only has issues when the counter cannot remain within eyesight, and most ninjutsu can always be seen by the Sharingan except for a few.

Spoiler:

Amaterasu is versatile. Any "flames" left from Amtaerasu can be controlled. Six dying flames can be recharged with chakra and pointed at an attack. Sasuke is also capable of manipulating six flames to attack against an opponent.

Spoiler:

Susano'o

No one has simply moved out the way of an arrow yet. Danzo could alter it's trajectory with Mokuton but couldn't move, neither could Kakashi. Remember, unless Fat Pain is still around, no one can do a thing about Susano'o. The most effective Pain against Sasuke is Fat Pain, but then again he is weak to taijutsu.. something the Sharingan allows to to excel in.

These are only a few advantages. Sasuke's number one advantage is that Amaterasu and Susano'o allow him to deal with multiple opponents. But it's according to what MS you're talking about. Sasuke attained a fully complete Susano'o, if he were in a mock battle with Pain he would more than likely come out on top, if he were put int he same situation Naruto was vs Pain. (Sasuke's completed Susano'o is completely different from his one vs Danzo)

Age : 29 Posts : 766

MCS sucks.

Posts : 2032

I still think Pain would be able to beat Danzo. The fact that both ninja are of higher than elite level it really comes down to a game of wits and endurance. Both have great strategic minds and intellect so it would be hard to separate them on that front. But, in my opinion Pain has greater endurance, mainly due to the fact that his chakra reserve is enormous. Even if Danzo defeats all of the paths he would be in a position much like that near the end of the sasuke battle. His life in question would be "not if but when". Don't forget the fact that Nagato isn't actually present in this battle, he doesn't need to be. His paths work in a better way than Izanagi. Yes, Danzo can make it so he does not take personal damage through the technique, but, Nagato with his paths isn't physically on the battlefield. It is a much more practical version and with much less risk and drain (physical, mental and chakra).

Danzo can defeat all the paths but still not be in anywhere near the shape to even touch Nagato let alone find him. Nagato would have more than enough chakra left to finish him off. He firstly completely destroyed Konoha, battled numerous elite shinobi/kunoichi in the village, battled Naruto and then had enough chakra to revive every fallen shinobi in Konoha. Do not underestimate how intense that is. With all the fancy, poster-boy, over-the-top offensive abilities the sharingan has it is still inferior to the Rinnegan. With the Rinnegan absolutely anything is possible, otherwise the creator of ninjutsu himself, Redoku would have wielded the sharingan not the rinnegan.

I find Danzo one of the most interesting characters in the series, I like him a lot. But there is no question, Nagato ftw pirat

Age : 33 Posts : 308

Pain's 'power' doesn't come in individual strengths but rather, from the team work of the six fluent members working together as a single unit. Each has a role and a job. While Danzo's mastery of Izanagi allows him to 'respawn' so speak, we have to figure that Pain isn't an idiot. Only the first use of Izanagi would possibly catch him off guard, after that, he would be more then able to compensate for Danzo's ability, and while Danzo is limited by his age, Izangi's time limit, and many other factos, Pain's abilities are more or less absolute.

Another factor is raw strength... Danzo lacks the physical power and speed that Naruto has in his Sage Mode. Naruto can physically over power his opponents while Danzo lacks this advantage. Pain can thus react to anything that any one of the Paths can see, while again Naruto, even with his perception, he isn't necessarily able to prevent taking fatal damage from a powerful Sage Taijutsu...

The problem with Pain is that he is over all a "One trick Pony" while this one trick is very... complicated, once you've laced together the many layers of his abilities you can more or less expect the same thing every time. Danzo's character seems much more diverse, simply because of the abstract arrangement of his abilities. Wind Release, Mokuton, Sharingan, Fuuinjutsu, Ninjutsu, a Mythic Summon... Danzo's character is a frankeinstin by the time him and Sasuke actually fight.

Now... Naruto > Pain... Sasuke > Danzo... but lets not forget that both situations had a lot of plot based help. Naruto WAS defeated by Pain. It was the emergence of the 9 tailed fox that gave Naruto an edge, and even then, he was able to combat him in this form and the fox form is almost neutralized. THEN miraculously with his DEAD FATHERS help, he reemerges from his state, in Sage mode... and the final battle takes place...

Pain defeats Naruto twice, even almost besting the nine tailed fox before Pain is actually defeated... And thats after all of the chakra he used to assault the village, AND blow up Konoha. Hell, even after that Nagato still has power enough to bring back to life all that he has killed.

Haha, as for Sasuke, he shouldn't have survived the Kage Summit! His strength does infact originate from the plot... not from his actual ability.

Posts : 64

Lul todd just stated what I said, but yet my simpler form made me look ignorant. Razz

Posts : 28

Reminder: I am discussing events inside of the plot. Not the author himself. If you wish to talk about how the plot helped such and such character, creating a separate thread would be great. I would definitely argue differently if that was the case. I am, in a way discussing the events as if I were a character inside of the manga who could see everything going on. Hollering plot this, or MCS that doesn't get anywhere in a debate about characters. I've debated with people like that before and we always end up trying to talk about what Kishimoto should have done, without realizing that if we are criticizing Kishimoto, we should be talking about Kishimoto and not the characters.

Leighton wrote:: MCS sucks.

Please elaborate on how MCS is an argument. I am discussing the characters abilities in battle, not the author who writes them. We would need a [Mangaka/Otaku] thread for that.

Todd wrote:: I still think Pain would be able to beat Danzo. The fact that both ninja are of higher than elite level it really comes down to a game of wits and endurance. ...But, in my opinion Pain has greater endurance, mainly due to the fact that his chakra reserve is enormous.

Please elaborate a bit more on this point. I have already pointed out how endurance doesn't necessarily mean anything in battle.

Naruto defeated Pain despite going through Sage Mode 3 times and the Kyuubi mode from 6-8 tails:

Killer Bee almost lost because he had a large amount of chakra/endurance:

Endurance doesn't mean everything, and you can lose because you have high endurance. (Aburame/Hyuuga/Kisame/Jiroubou, all opponents who specialize in making chakra useless)

Todd wrote:: Even if Danzo defeats all of the paths he would be in a position much like that near the end of the sasuke battle. His life in question would be "not if but when".

Danzo defeats Pain != Danzo must be at his limit.

I don't understand how you can make that conclusion that Danzo "must" be at his limit with his life in question. Why does Danzo's life have to be jeopardized to beat Pain? I'm also not implying that Danzo would be 100% fine either.

Todd wrote:: Don't forget the fact that Nagato isn't actually present in this battle, he doesn't need to be. His paths work in a better way than Izanagi. Yes, Danzo can make it so he does not take personal damage through the technique, but, Nagato with his paths isn't physically on the battlefield.

Nagato wouldn't be able to do anything even if he was present in battle unless he gets a chakra rod in Danzo.

Nagato uses a chakra rod to control Naruto, just like he does Pain:

Remember that Nagato uses Pain because he obviously has had an issue using his own body from the Gedo Mazo summon. It allows him to execute his goals because he physically can't move (enough to be on the front lines). There's a reason why Nagato isn't present on the battlefield... simply because he has been disabled ever since.

Nagato shows that he is healthy and able to use his Rinnegan techniques in battle:

Using Gedo Mazo sapped Nagato of his physical ability to move. The chakra rods have also remained in the same place from then until he died.:

Izanagi works better than the Path's in the sense that he can literally disregard any attack.

Danzo decides Sasuke's arrow is useless:

Pain can still take damage and be incapacitated to some degree.

Jiraiya blinds a Path with a single kick:

Jiraiya is able to prevent Animal Path from summoning with pure battle smarts:

The Frogs genjutsu knocks Pain out:

Naraka Path has to revive Pain (Note two piercings near nose and defined chin line are exactly similar):

As seen in the spoiler above, Izanagi is better in battle, obviously.

Todd wrote:: Danzo can defeat all the paths but still not be in anywhere near the shape to even touch Nagato let alone find him.

This seems to be more of your interpretation of Danzo's ability. How can you assume that Danzo wouldn't be in shape to touch Nagato? As said before, Nagato is useless without his bodies. There's nothing he can do since he's bound to his wheelchair.

Todd wrote:: Nagato would have more than enough chakra left to finish him off. He firstly completely destroyed Konoha, battled numerous elite shinobi/kunoichi in the village, battled Naruto and then had enough chakra to revive every fallen shinobi in Konoha. Do not underestimate how intense that is.

I already explained how stamina or chakra amount means nothing in battle. Danzo augmented his physical energy so he could use Izanagi. He still lost to Sasuke. Point is, that increasing or having a large amount of physical energy or chakra doesn't necessarily mean anything. At the end of the day, Naruto was known as the hero who defeated Pain. I had to beat it into my head, I can make a bunch of arguments about how Naruto had a play-by-play and was pampered with all the information he had. Then I realized it was foolish to think that Naruto couldn't defeat Pain. Naruto still went out there and took on all Path's and defeated them all. The new generation will surpass the old is one of the key themes in Naruto. Pain is inferior to Naruto, and chakra amount isn't how battles are decided. Just like having the monster chakra SP on this site doesn't mean you will win.

Todd wrote:: With all the fancy, poster-boy, over-the-top offensive abilities the sharingan has it is still inferior to the Rinnegan. With the Rinnegan absolutely anything is possible, otherwise the creator of ninjutsu himself, Redoku would have wielded the sharingan not the rinnegan.

It seems as if your opinion of the Sharingan is already biased, so I don't understand how you can form an objective conclusion about it.

The Rikudo had the Rinnegan != The Sharingan must be inferior to the Rinnegan.

I don't understand that analogy.

At least to Madara who was regarded as a 'monster' and a threat by the Tsuchikage, the ocular power and potential of the Sharingan is superior to the Rinnegan. Yeah I said it, umadfanboi?!! (totally joking @ the umad thing) I can explain more on this if you want me to.

WTFlash wrote:: Pain's 'power' doesn't come in individual strengths but rather, from the team work of the six fluent members working together as a single unit. Each has a role and a job.

Pain's power comes from the six Paths correct. It works by team work. But that team work can easily be destroyed by forcing battles to one on one. I linked this in the above post, by Jiraiya.

Naruto shows that Sage Mode is no joke and trumps in close range. 1 Down:

Since Teamwork is so important, it is also important to make sure your team stays alive. 2 Down:

Summonings require range. They were useless one on one. 3 Down:

As long as Pain is not looking, the battle is one on one! 4 Down:

You can't use Sage Chakra! 5 Down:

Naruto put Pain out for a little bit in less than a page, teamwork is useless one on one. 6 Down:

Teamwork is useless against someone who can easily engage opponents in a close range situation.

WTFlash wrote:: While Danzo's mastery of Izanagi allows him to 'respawn' so speak, we have to figure that Pain isn't an idiot. Only the first use of Izanagi would possibly catch him off guard, after that, he would be more then able to compensate for Danzo's ability, and while Danzo is limited by his age, Izangi's time limit, and many other factos, Pain's abilities are more or less absolute.

Pain is strong != He can compensate for Izanagi

I don't understand this analogy either. How can you assume that Pain can compensate for Izanagi? In order for this argument to work, you need a present a logical explanation on what Pain could do to counter Izanagi.

Old age also means nothing in a manga where a 68 year old can still fight, with his only weakness being shadow clone. Orochimaru commented on his weakness being Shadow Clone because it divides up the chakra evenly.

Sandaime was pretty strong:

Age also meant nothing to Danzo, who augmented his physical energy for sustained endurance.

Danzo could fight, he made sure he was able to:

And Izanagi can be turned off. It's not like once he starts using it, he has to continue using it. You can turn it off to save it and save chakra. Remember the link were I also said that Danzo has no issue getting close to opponents. Susano'o was the only reason he didn't get killed off the bat. The only Pain in my eyes that presents an issue to Danzo is God Path, the rest of them can be baited into attacking, respawn and then go for the kill. Danzo intended to simply kill Sasuke with simple kunai (he could've) but Susano'o was in the way.

Danzo is able to conserve Izanagi:

Danzo attempted to stab Sasuke with a kunai and end it.:

Pain showed no defense similar to Susano'o. Pain's closest defense to Susano'o is Shinra Tensei, which has a down time of 5 seconds after each use. Hungry Ghost Path can absorbed chakra based ninjutsu, so "some how" absorbing Izanagi is out. Izanagi is genjutsu cast on ones self. Animal Path presents the most pressing concern, but Animal Path was shown to be defeated in close quarters situations. Also Danzo's wind techniques are pretty sharp, so he could more or less deal with the summoned animals.

Something able to blow a hole in Susano'o should be able to take out summons.:

Also the chameleon summon would probably press no concern for Danzo. The only summon which might be an issue is the dog summon, and Pain summoning two boss summons at the same time. Human Path can do nothing in close quarters against a ocular genjutsu technique that puts the user wherever they want to be. Asura Path's bombs are synonymous to Sasuke's arrows. Fast, aerial attacks that are hard to react too, which also did nothing against Izanagi. Naraka Path had no battle strategy. He could only heal. So, I don't see what he can do to counter, plus he was knocked out by a genin.

WTFlash wrote:: Another factor is raw strength... Danzo lacks the physical power and speed that Naruto has in his Sage Mode. Naruto can physically over power his opponents while Danzo lacks this advantage. Pain can thus react to anything that any one of the Paths can see, while again Naruto, even with his perception, he isn't necessarily able to prevent taking fatal damage from a powerful Sage Taijutsu...

You're missing the fact that taijutsu is useless if you can restrict your opponent's physical movements. You don't need to be a brute to cut someone's head off.

Danzo stopped Sasuke in his tracks.:

With Izanagi, only a brief second is needed to kill the opponent. Let's take a quote from Trickster Polymath.

Trickster Polymath wrote:: I can imagine Danzo would have a very good chance in defeating Pein, with the advantages of Izanagi to warp the boundary between reality and illusion. ...Sure, Pein has a large quantity of chakra but that means little in a battle. Physically? Oh, Pein has an advantage. Even with Danzo's knowledge of ninjutsu, Pein has him beat with that. Pein had to use tactics that were more brutal against Naruto because A) He was in Sage Mode during his fight and B) He's the Jinchuuriki for the Kyuubi, the strongest Bijuu out of them all.

Danzo has that advantage with the boundaries. Even if Pein realizes that he is able to do that, there isn't a simple way to counter that. When you lean towards space/time/reality, you realize that even the strongest of people will have to subcome to that. Pein affects the physical and spiritual realm swhile Danzo can effect his own plain of existence which neutralizes the physical and spiritual realm Pein can manipulate...

WTFlash wrote:: Now... Naruto > Pain... Sasuke > Danzo...

Yes, let's note the symbolism in parallel between the characters.

Both return after training:

Both stop a physical attack close range:

Both deal with summons with relative ease:

Obvious parallel here:

WTFlash wrote:: Pain defeats Naruto twice, even almost besting the nine tailed fox before Pain is actually defeated... And thats after all of the chakra he used to assault the village, AND blow up Konoha. Hell, even after that Nagato still has power enough to bring back to life all that he has killed.

Haha, as for Sasuke, he shouldn't have survived the Kage Summit! His strength does infact originate from the plot... not from his actual ability.

I already discussed the issue of addressing plot in the reminder above, sadly I posted it too late. I also already discussed the issue that endurance doesn't necessarily mean anything, found in my response to Todd.

We already know Sasuke wouldn't have survived. It wasn't based on plot, it was because he used too much chakra. Danzo bailed the moment Sasuke got there, but the Mizukage and Tsuchikage didn't allow him to leave. Mizukage forced him to expend Susano'o to protect against Lava and Acid techniques. After using that chakra and getting some from Zetsu, he was immediately trapped by a Particle Element, which has the ability to destroy things on a molecular level by some translations. (At the end of the day, you're "Dust") Madara saved him. If there's anything hax about what happened in the office, it's not from Sasuke. Madara some how was able to warp in, solidify, and then go intangible in a small time frame. I wonder why people holler plot or hax for Sasuke, but completely seem to miss Madara??

Posts : 2032

Tane I am sorry but you are making this debate kind of stupid. You keep contradicting yourself in so many places its hard to list. Just because you link pictures does not make your argument better than any other person. You are trying to look at this objectively (which you should be doing) but you're not, and at the same time critcising others subjective comments on the matter. Very hypocritical.

For example;
You say about my comment

Quote :: This seems to be more of your interpretation of Danzo's ability.

And then say this

Quote :: I already explained how stamina or chakra amount means nothing in battle.

I'm not trying to be a rude (and nor do I wish to be) but I am just saying, if you are going to take this argument beyond the realms of a friendly debate, then perhaps you should work on your own technique rather than criticism of others. pirat

Posts : 28

I'm using the manga to back up my points. When you say " still think Pain would be able to beat Danzo. The fact that both ninja are of higher than elite level it really comes down to a game of wits and endurance. ...But, in my opinion Pain has greater endurance, mainly due to the fact that his chakra reserve is enormous." How can I just take your argument as worthy if I do not see evidence to back it up? Essentially if I was using this argument, I would link something into the manga that shows Pain showcasing his endurance(or try to say, remember chibaku tensei? Just an example here, I'm aware you did that). It's not that I don't believe anything you say, but when people start posting who could beat, who and how, it works better if you reference the manga to explain your example. For instance, you write a research paper and you give sources correct? I'm merely doing the same thing in a different format.

You said. "Danzo can defeat all the paths but still not be in anywhere near the shape to even touch Nagato let alone find him."

You assumed that Danzo would "not be in anywhere near the shape to even touch Nagato." You make an absolute statement by using the word "can, still not be." Had you said "Even if Danzo could defeat all the paths of pain, he may not be in the shape to touch Nagato, or find him." Saying that is completely different in terms of arguing from what you originally said.

Then I respond and say "I already explained how stamina or chakra amount means nothing in battle." Unless you assumed that I'm saying "Stamina or chakra is useless in battle" then what you posted was not a contradiction. I will clarify. Stamina or chakra does not mean everything in a battle. I would have figured that last sentence about the monster chakra SC thing here on US would've cleared that up. Like I said before, battles are not decided by chakra amount... if that were the case then the Juubi should still exist. (Had a chakra so large that even in death it would escape the body of the Rikudo.)

I'm not being mean lol, I normally post like this. It's not intentional, if it sounds "rude." The reason why I said that, was because I literally already did post that argument before you posted. Maybe you didn't read the thread before you posted (don't mean to be rude).

Myself wrote:: Well we all have our opinions, but our opinions don't necessarily write the manga. Nagato had a massive amount of chakra, but that doesn't mean anything.

Mass amount of chakra! = Win any battle.

Sure chakra can help you win a battle, but you can still loose no matter how much chakra you have. Killer Bee almost lost because he had a massive amount of chakra (Having that large an excess amount made it easier on Samehada). If we assume that just because you have a massive amount of chakra that you will win, then the Juubi should still exist.

Right after adams post and before yours, so like I said "I already explained how stamina or chakra amount means nothing in battle." Even trickster agreed. (I don't mean to be rude here) I just assumed you read the thread, because I already argued about Pain's chakra amount. EDIT: and it didn't seem like you were arguing that specific part of my post... IDK, you didn't quote, so I didn't know. That's why I always do it just to make sure the person knows what exactly I'm responding to.

EDIT

Spoiler:

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Posts : 14

After the pain battle I haven't seen Naruto use sage mode... Does he keep two clones there at all times. Like he wakes up and is like " I should put my two sage clones

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

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