Kugutsu Limitations

Posts : 1044

I just felt like pointing something out that should be apparent but has apparenly gone unnoticed or undiscussed. The limitations applied to a finite number of allowed puppets to a Puppeteer is not only not in following with the limitations of every other type of speciality but its also utterly ridiculous in the first place. First off, there is no specification I can find which states how many of the total puppets you can start out with when you make a character (unless I missed it, which is entirely possible) so theres that issue and secondly the very idea that a character should have a definite limit on their options is unfair to puppeteers and biased towards them out of some sort of misguided fear or disdain. How so? Let me clarify.

No other type of specialization is numerically limited. Very simple but somehow not noticed, I even saw a discussion of Kugutsu where the limit was brought up multiple times and nobody stopped to think 'Hey, why does that limit exist? Why do we have one crippled speciality that has a ceiling when any other shinobi can have infinite jutsu of their respective specs?' Come on guys. The excuses I'm expecting to hear? That puppets are 'too powerful' and thus warrant this sort of limit and no, they aren't, because a puppet is just a collection of jutsu effectively initiated by a clone (there is no functional difference bettween a clone performing jutsu and a puppet, prove me wrong.) So effectively the site rules are saying that you can only have X number of cloning jutsu, but only if you're a puppeteer, everyone else can have as many as they want (and clones of certain types are BETTER than puppets because they can use their creator's jutsu or have better abilities intrinsincly.)

So effectively the system is biased against puppeteers by installing a ceiling for no good reason, not to mention there are already loads of limitations on them so why would they need to have a LIMITED arsenal? They're weapons. Weapon specialists aren't told 'Hey, you can only create 12 weapons, ever.' because that would be ridiculous and people would flip shit over it. Nobody has done this about puppets, probably due to a lack of attention and the anti-Kugutsu bias that I seem to see prevalent in the forum. Ooooh, puppets are scary, nerf them harder, is what I'm getting and it makes me chuckle.

Seriously, ceiling cap? Its bad enough I had to comment. Seriously. I don't even roleplay here.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

While I have argued against the leniency on puppet users in terms of how many they can control at once without training. I support the notion that a puppet user should be able to make as many puppets as they damn well please. There is no logical reason why a puppeteer couldn't spend as much time making new puppets as other shinobi spend making and creating new jutsu.

This also helps counter balance my previous suggestion that puppeteers should have some kind of limitation on how many of their puppets they can control at once at certain skill levels. A genin couldn't control 4 puppets simultaneously blah blah blah, I made that argument well enough in the other thread. But with this now, even if one of those puppets were destroyed, the puppeteer could produce a scroll and pop out a replacement puppet. An act which would be balanced in and of itself simply by the time required to take out the scroll and unseal the puppet. A rather wide opening an opponent could still take advantage of so they will be forced to be tricky about how the go about it. No worries of someone just popping out an endless stream of puppets so long as their opponent keeps up the offensive.

That's my two cents on the matter.

Posts : 1044

Control limitations or limitations on how many could be brought out onto the battlefield (though even that is iffy considering non-weapon users don't have a real limit to what they're allowed to bring, so long as its physically possible) are logical and consistent. However capping the ceiling off is not. Limiting who can control what and to what extent based on ranking would be expected, its already sort of half done that way, but an upper ceiling limit makes no sense because no other spec faces such an issue.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

Perhaps I should clarify. I'm fully agreeing with you. By limiting how many one can control at once I was referring to the number of puppets on can manipulate at the same time. Just as a genin swordsman would NEVER be able to fight like Killer Bee using what...8 swords at once? They just wouldn't have the level of skill required.

My complaint was the same with puppeteers. It was stated in canon that a puppet users skill was determined by the number of puppets they could wield simultaneously. The traditional max as a LEGENDARY puppet user being 10, or one puppet per finger. The current system has puppeteers starting out with 4 puppets and being capable of using them all at once. When in the canon Kankuro(A shinobi who was praised by Sasori for his skill) could only handle 4 at once upon becoming a jounin.

On THIS issue, I agree. A puppeteer should be able to have as many puppets that they can create in their minds and should only be limited on how many they can take into battle based on what is physically possible. Which is quite a lot considering Sasori had 100 puppets in a single scroll.

Age : 28 Posts : 332

As far as i know there is only one limit, and the limit can actually be bypassed as long as you are not a normal human, the limit is there due to logicality, the limit is a ninja can control 10 puppets at a time, this is because you only have 10 fingers. That limit well has to be there considering you can't control two puppets on one finger.

That limit has to be there. Now, on to why other specs has 'no' limitations. For starters, it is because movement is limitless. You brought up the idea that weapons don't have limitations, well the do. You can only feasibly control two swords in your hand just like you can only control 10 puppets, it's the same you can continuously pop out weapons but can only control a max of two at a time. Next, using Kugutsu I'm pretty sure uses much less jutsu then using jutsu. So, again these limitations are on ninjutsu and genjutsu because they can't spam things out at a ridiculous rate due the high level of chakra it will take out of them, as long as their jutsu are up to their rank. The way the site does it, currently at genin I think you can spit out 5, just 5, C-rank jutsu. I don't know but that seems like a hefty limit to me. Now, with Taijutsu there is less limitations than all of the above and it joins with puppetry / weaponry. You can only do what is humanly possible, you can't just randomly fire 5 punches in the space of a second and then a kick aswell, you have to be able to do it with enough force to allow yourself time to get ahead of your opponent.

Note: There probably are more limitations to each, specially taijutsu, It's just i woke up at 7am (Now, god knows why I'm up so early). So there you have it hage, from my interpretations any way.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Adding on to Klown's points.

How many specialties allow the character to have A-ranked equipment at C-rank? At the last puppet-related application a moderator determined that puppets are only limited by their slots not the rank of the equipment going into them. Compare that to a weaponry-specialized character who is restricted by rank (no weapon over their rank), number of kits/ scrolls, and the maximum weapons chart. Plus puppet-users are one of only two specialties that can use poisons.

I would say the lack of puppet-users here is more that most of the players aren't interested in that style of play than a lack of power.

Age : 28 Posts : 332

Adding to Nuclear's points on amount of players, I wouldn't even call it a lack of power i would call it a lack of knowledge - Not much has been shown about puppets compared to other jutsu, We've seen sasori a little bit and a smidgen of Kankuro. Also the play style is very difficult, it is pretty hard to pull off puppetry effectively enough to win most of your fights..

Age : 36 Posts : 1004

Actually Puppetry is easy but eh...I agree that the puppets are just fine though

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

NuclearTreerat wrote:: How many specialties allow the character to have A-ranked equipment at C-rank?

That's not entirely true. A C-rank puppet can have A-rank equipment, but the character still has to be A-rank. That limit still does exist. The reason that puppetry users are limited to a maximum amount of puppets, is the same reason we don't allow people to create twenty summons. It offers way too much versatility. Plus, when are you going to need more than 12 puppets? You can only use 10 at once. Let's not forget that maintaining puppets is A LOT cheaper than summoning 10 shadow clones to fight for you. 10 shadow clones pretty much depletes your chakra to like, 5 per clone. Whereas a puppetry user barely expends any chakra controlling ten puppets simultaneously. Let's also add on the fact that puppets actually CAN use jutsu, if they are equipped with; say, a fuuin seal, or have flamethrower like attachments. So let's recall. 10 puppets that can all breath fire vs 10 shadow clones that poof after two hits. Which do you think is more fair?

Posts : 1044

Klown wrote:: As far as i know there is only one limit, and the limit can actually be bypassed as long as you are not a normal human, the limit is there due to logicality, the limit is a ninja can control 10 puppets at a time, this is because you only have 10 fingers. That limit well has to be there considering you can't control two puppets on one finger.

Klown wrote:: Adding to Nuclear's points on amount of players, I wouldn't even call it a lack of power i would call it a lack of knowledge - Not much has been shown about puppets compared to other jutsu, We've seen sasori a little bit and a smidgen of Kankuro. Also the play style is very difficult, it is pretty hard to pull off puppetry effectively enough to win most of your fights..

Do try reading before you respond, I'm talking about the MAXIMUM limitation of puppets not the BATTLE USE limitation. That should address every one of your points easily enough because its all based on one error in understanding. And as for lack of knowledge, I assume you're joking right? Tons of topics aren't understood in Naruto and still allowed with even less information (Uzumaki clan maybe?) and even if that was true, whats your point? Not understanding isn't an excuse to have a bad system based on your understanding, its just illogical to the extreme. Its like saying 'I don't understand cars so its okay if I drive this golfcart rigged with explosives down the highway dripping gasoline right?' Not an excuse.

NuclearTreerat wrote:: How many specialties allow the character to have A-ranked equipment at C-rank? At the last puppet-related application a moderator determined that puppets are only limited by their slots not the rank of the equipment going into them. Compare that to a weaponry-specialized character who is restricted by rank (no weapon over their rank), number of kits/ scrolls, and the maximum weapons chart. Plus puppet-users are one of only two specialties that can use poisons.

That sounds like more an individual or system balance issue, not one relating to what I'm discussing about a cap limit. And there is no maximum weapon chart, that chart only applies to non-speciality users if you read it more careful, someone with the spec can have as many weapons as they so please and can create.

Enzo wrote:: The reason that puppetry users are limited to a maximum amount of puppets, is the same reason we don't allow people to create twenty summons. It offers way too much versatility.

No, thats not correct because if it was then you would have to cap EVERY specialization because they all have even more potential for vesatility because they have unlimited options, so either you're lying, misinformed, or haven't objectively considered the situation in any serious context. How is it that a limited number of puppets can somehow match the versatility afforded by an uncapped maximum number of jutsu or weapons from any other specialization? How does, say, 12 give you more options than infinity? I'm seriously curious as to which of those three options it is here because there is no way you can seriously think that knowing what I'm saying.

Enzo wrote:: Plus, when are you going to need more than 12 puppets?

When am I going to need 200+ jutsu? Maybe infinity? Thats not a fair question if you only ask that of one specialization and thats obvious when you think about it, you can't just say 'well when are you gonna' need more than 30 Taijutsu? Thats why you can only have 30 but Ninjutsu can have infinity.' If you replace the spec you can see how blatantly ridiculous of a logical fallacy it is. Its just bias, plain and simple. And personally? I've used over 200 jutsu before with a character so I can tell you when I'm going to need that many jutsu or more than 12 puppets, when I want to use them and when they're appropriate. Like every other jutsu. And in the before times here I personally had way more than 12 puppets and they all had a purpose so I did need them. Not that it matters, just personally quips included.

Enzo wrote:: You can only use 10 at once.

You can only use X number of jutsu per fight, again, whats your point? That only makes sense in light of a bias, logically it falls apart like Jenga blocks, see above.

Enzo wrote:: Let's not forget that maintaining puppets is A LOT cheaper than summoning 10 shadow clones to fight for you. 10 shadow clones pretty much depletes your chakra to like, 5 per clone.

Good then its a spec then just like Shadow Clone...oh wait...my comparison was mechanical in combat, if I failed to make that clear I apologize, I was not referring to cost. They have the same function in a battle and fill the same role, one of them is just stronger because its a specialization and the other one is a jutsu, thats generally how things work. This should address the rest of that point nicely but...

Enzo wrote:: Which do you think is more fair?

The clone because its limitless in its versatility (which is, following your logic previously a very good reason why it should be restricted apparently) and doesn't have a rule mechanic imposed cap on the type you can create. Not to mention there are FAR more durable clones than that, any Doton based clone is stronger than wood and thats just a basic one, lets not even get into more advanced or complex clones. So your point relies on that specific jutsu and comparing it to a spec and saying because the spec is better, it somehow deserves to be restricted unfairly compared to every other specialization. So why not limit every other spec because they're also better than clones then? Seriously, I'm baffled, how am I not making perfect sense here?

Age : 28 Posts : 332

How many people use Uzumaki?? No one, because no one really knows about it..To be honest that is not even a clan as far as I'm concerned, the one on the site is a canon clan with fan made abilities as far as I'm concerned.

As for driving a car, that's different, if you learn then you know. Just because you can drive doesn't mean your going to try fix a problem with the engine now are you?? I'd hope not.

As for limitations, Enzo is right, how many puppets can you make before their roles start to overlap or you make a puppet to do something another can. You only need 12, there's no reason to have more it's just unnecessary, as for capping it well I'm not in control of that

Age : 35 Posts : 1113

Hope y'all don't mind if I chime in.

1. Firstly, I don't see much logic in restricting how many puppets one can manufacture. Conversely, while I see this is not realistic, it's more than fair to say most of Naruto itself is unrealistic.

2. I don't see much harm in letting people create as many as they like. Even if they are tucked away in scrolls, a certain number must eventually become a physical burden and they might have to accommodate for that. So they have a bigger armory to choose from? Meh. They still need to select appropriately.

3. I do, however, see harm in letting them access all of them during battle (not that anyone here suggested allowing this). Before anyone starts quoting rules at me, I do not mean how many can be used at once. I mean how many can be used in any one topic (for which I don't think there is a rule). If we were to remove that cap on quantity, any puppeteer could potentially have limitless back ups - no matter how many marionettes were destroyed by the opponent.

4. Finding mutual ground by loosening the restriction on quantity but introducing a rule about how many different puppets can be brought out in one topic might satisfy both sides of this argument. It also forces puppeteers to choose wisely from their armory, which makes for more intelligent role play.

5. To be honest, I don't know that many puppeteers will create far beyond the current limit of twelve anyway (Richard aside Rolling Eyes

). Although I said above that picking the right puppets for the right situation would promote intelligent role play, limiting the quantity might promote intelligent design of the marionettes themselves.

So to sum up, I don't think I've actually helped this argument much. Sowweh.

~Soph.

Posts : 1216

There isn't a bias against puppets here at all. As it stands puppets are indeed the most under played but I doubt that has anything to do with how many puppets one can make. Now maybe if you suggested increasing the number rather than just right out ripping the cap off then yeah. I'm more than willing to try increasing it reasonably. But as it stands I doubt that at S-rank you'd need 25+ puppets even if you say they are back up. Sasori's one hundred were all pretty much D-rank carrying only a sword coated in poison. What made them deadly was their numbers then how he had control over them when their numbers thinned. A puppet user is a walking army if played properly. I mean yeah we can increase the amount to say the max at S-rank could be 20ish or so. But just removing the cap doesn't seem to do anything that increasing it can't do.

Age : 35 Posts : 1113

Kiseki wrote:: There isn't a bias against puppets here at all. As it stands puppets are indeed the most under played but I doubt that has anything to do with how many puppets one can make. Now maybe if you suggested increasing the number rather than just right out ripping the cap off then yeah. I'm more than willing to try increasing it reasonably. But as it stands I doubt that at S-rank you'd need 25+ puppets even if you say they are back up. Sasori's one hundred were all pretty much D-rank carrying only a sword coated in poison. What made them deadly was their numbers then how he had control over them when their numbers thinned. A puppet user is a walking army if played properly. I mean yeah we can increase the amount to say the max at S-rank could be 20ish or so. But just removing the cap doesn't seem to do anything that increasing it can't do.

No, there isn't a bias. I still think puppetry is one of the strongest specialties available - even with a 12 puppet cap. I'd support maybe extending the maximum (hence the mention of "loosening the restriction on quantity" as opposed to 'removing') but I'd like to hear from the site's puppeteers about whether it bothers them and how far they may/may not want it extended. I'd have thought 20 would be more than enough.

Posts : 1044

Klown wrote:: How many people use Uzumaki?? No one, because no one really knows about it..To be honest that is not even a clan as far as I'm concerned, the one on the site is a canon clan with fan made abilities as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't say it was in heavy use, I was simply illustrating the logical breakage of your point and there are many more examples than just that so don't be concerned with the specifics, people use things that are not fully understood and that was my point which you haven't done anything to counter so I'll assume its understood and we can throw out that line of bad logic.

Klown wrote:: As for driving a car, that's different, if you learn then you know. Just because you can drive doesn't mean your going to try fix a problem with the engine now are you?? I'd hope not.

Its not for the purposes of my analogy, its something complex that not everybody understands but people still use effectively anyways. Understanding is not vital to proper usage and the mere fact that you're on a computer despite my assumption that you do not, in fact, know anything about how the internal configuration of the display screen of your monitor even works (which I sadly do know as a bit of my useless random trivia.) Its not to be taken literally, its to be understood figuratively. Again, you're not countering my point.

Klown wrote:: As for limitations, Enzo is right, how many puppets can you make before their roles start to overlap or you make a puppet to do something another can. You only need 12, there's no reason to have more it's just unnecessary, as for capping it well I'm not in control of that

Infinite. There is no limit to how many you can make before they overlap because that limit would be the mass total human creativity and that is effectively, if not actually, limitless. Nor does it even matter, just because you can't come up with enough ideas to make it worthwhile doesn't mean you should support limiting others. Just like you probably can't tell the difference bettween the hundreds of pencils an artist uses doesn't mean you can come in, take the pencils away, say 'man, how many do you need? just use these twelve.' and be right. It doesn't make you anywhere NEAR accurate, it just makes you dense frankly. Lack of comprehension on your part does not justify limitation on anyone else's part.

Kiseki wrote:: There isn't a bias against puppets here at all. As it stands puppets are indeed the most under played but I doubt that has anything to do with how many puppets one can make. Now maybe if you suggested increasing the number rather than just right out ripping the cap off then yeah. I'm more than willing to try increasing it reasonably. But as it stands I doubt that at S-rank you'd need 25+ puppets even if you say they are back up. Sasori's one hundred were all pretty much D-rank carrying only a sword coated in poison. What made them deadly was their numbers then how he had control over them when their numbers thinned. A puppet user is a walking army if played properly. I mean yeah we can increase the amount to say the max at S-rank could be 20ish or so. But just removing the cap doesn't seem to do anything that increasing it can't do.

There is a bias and its evident, because many of you have never used Kugutsu or even considered it appropriately you're extending your lack of imagination, personal feelings, and other bollocks into your decisions because they are not logical as I continue to point out. I'm not saying to increase the limit because thats not fair to a puppeteer who has to compete with ANY. OTHER. SPECIALIZATION. because that versatility everyone likes to cite as a reason why they should be limited is getting the shit kicked out of it by simple logic.

Infinite jutsu = More versatility, not a hard concept, not understanding why this is so difficult.

~Fox~ wrote:: No, there isn't a bias. I still think puppetry is one of the strongest specialties available - even with a 12 puppet cap. I'd support maybe extending the maximum (hence the mention of "loosening the restriction on quantity" as opposed to 'removing') but I'd like to hear from the site's puppeteers about whether it bothers them and how far they may/may not want it extended. I'd have thought 20 would be more than enough.

I have to harshly disagree, even you have stated that you don't see what the use is in having multiple and suggested some kind of compromise. Compromising isn't what I'd suggest be done because compromising a balance decision only gives the weaker party (Kugutsu) a boost but it isn't on par with the other specs. It can't be the strongest because sheer mathematical odds defy it, a shinobi with a Ninjutsu spec could literally devote a dozen or more jutsu just to handle puppets if he felt inclined and the Kugutsu user would be unable to do anything about it because his 'jutsu' (puppets) are limited. Theres an evident lack in diversity for the puppeteer. He isn't ALLOWED to have the same versatility in combat as anyone else and thats not something I would compromise, its like compromising gender equality by saying the women can vote but only on Tuesdays. It doesn't make it fair, its actually just a little bit insulting to see the issue and then only half deal with it.

No compromise. I'm in no position to enforce or force the change but I will not support a compromising position because it makes no sense. Not a lick, the only way it makes sense is by ignoring the facts of the matter and I'm very bad at that. Normally I can sorta' see why people support the things they do but this baffles me because its just soooooooooooooo fucking obvious.

Can I be done rehashing and restating now? I'm not seeing any reasons against removing the limit besides saying that puppeteers are somehow so much better than every other spec that they merit a limitation even though that limitation cripples them harder than dropping a baby down a flight of stairs compared to everything else. Its not even about the combat capability, I'm sure a puppeteer would do just fine with a dozen puppets but thats not the issue, the issue is that its not about what someone CAN work with. Its about whats mechanically FAIR to work with to balance things out and thats not anything to do with personal opinions or experience, its just logic stripped bare and cold. Bigger arsenals, more options, and somehow Kugutsu is more powerful? How? Rhetorical question: Its not. Infinity > Twelve, just in case the math was foggy.

Posts : 1044

In fact, lets be creative. If anyone here feels like they could not only pose a threat to me, but actually defeat me, using a limited arsenal of 12 puppets against me and my arsenal of 'whatever-fucking-Ninjutsu-I-feel-like' (run through and Staff approved or course) then they are more than welcome, in fact STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to let me know and I would be absolutely elated to allow them the chance to show me how their position stands up in practical use. Any takers? Come at me bro.

Posts : 327

I agree with Fox in regards to pretty much all her points. If a ninja has a specialization, then you'd assume that said ninja would devote the majority of their time to train in that particular skill. For puppeteers, this would include conjuring up more ideas for their puppets (ways of utilizing slots, potential new puppets, etc) as well as actually training with said puppets. It's similar to how a member may create any amount of custom jutsu.

Hageshii Ame wrote:

In fact, lets be creative. If anyone here feels like they could not only pose a threat to me, but actually defeat me, using a limited arsenal of 12 puppets against me and my arsenal of 'whatever-fucking-Ninjutsu-I-feel-like' (run through and Staff approved or course) then they are more than welcome, in fact STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to let me know and I would be absolutely elated to allow them the chance to show me how their position stands up in practical use. Any takers? Come at me bro.

In regards to combat, a given character may have — through countless RPs — gained enough experience to purchase, lets say, 50 jutsu of one particular speciality. The RP'er can only really use about half that amount if they are very conscious about their character's chakra reserves (and this is assuming their character is of A-rank or above). So in a way, other specialities do have numerical limitations expressed via their chakra reserves.

In comparison to those limitations, puppetry I believe, can be much more versatile even with the aforementioned limitations. A dozen puppets of various ranks, given the maximum amount of slots, can obviously be quite deadly. A S-rank puppet's capabilities exceed that of an A-rank puppet's, an A-rank puppet's capabilities exceed that of a B-rank puppet's, and so on. A master puppeteer on US is able to wield 12 puppets with a total of 86 slots, each with a potentially different way of poisoning, paralyzing, disarming and killing. Even as a Genin a puppeteer has 17 slots and a total of four puppets, plus their second speciality. That should be more than enough to compete with other Genin regardless of specialty. In this instance, I personally think the Fuuninjutsu speciality is the most limiting in terms of what you can do at a lower rank. Then again, I've never really pressed my imagination to think up of possibilities.

Overall, I can't think of a reason why a puppeteer should be limited in the amount of puppets they can make. Regarding the amount of puppets one can utilize in battle however, I'm in full agreement with Mugen and Fox. Also, let's not forget that every character gets two specialities. Puppeteers can also excel in other areas and aren't just limited to their puppets, but if someone wants a one-dimensional character who is learned in only puppetry fine, that's their decision. I think however, the potential of a puppeteer is, just like with any other specialty, limitless. It just depends on creativity and the ability to work within the rules.

Age : 28 Posts : 332

Limiting the amount you can use in battle is the same thing as limiting the how many you can make, it's the same thing as Hage said in his first post it is putting a 'ceiling' above puppeteers. You don't go to a ninjutsu user oh you can use 12 total jutsu this post out of your arsenal of 80, you let them be free to use what they wan't when they want.

I'm all for removing these restrictions and making them carry scrolls about, i really am. They can worry about weight issues later.

Age : 32 Posts : 787

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Hageshii Ame wrote:: In fact, lets be creative. If anyone here feels like they could not only pose a threat to me, but actually defeat me, using a limited arsenal of 12 puppets against me and my arsenal of 'whatever-fucking-Ninjutsu-I-feel-like' (run through and Staff approved or course) then they are more than welcome, in fact STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to let me know and I would be absolutely elated to allow them the chance to show me how their position stands up in practical use. Any takers? Come at me bro.

*insert witty comment about how statement has been stolen and used for my own personal use*

Aka, for anyone not intelligent enough to understand, and I quote hage: "Come at me bro"

Age : 35 Posts : 1113

Hageshii Ame wrote:

~Fox~ wrote:: No, there isn't a bias. I still think puppetry is one of the strongest specialties available - even with a 12 puppet cap. I'd support maybe extending the maximum (hence the mention of "loosening the restriction on quantity" as opposed to 'removing') but I'd like to hear from the site's puppeteers about whether it bothers them and how far they may/may not want it extended. I'd have thought 20 would be more than enough.

I have to harshly disagree, even you have stated that you don't see what the use is in having multiple and suggested some kind of compromise. Compromising isn't what I'd suggest be done because compromising a balance decision only gives the weaker party (Kugutsu) a boost but it isn't on par with the other specs. It can't be the strongest because sheer mathematical odds defy it, a shinobi with a Ninjutsu spec could literally devote a dozen or more jutsu just to handle puppets if he felt inclined and the Kugutsu user would be unable to do anything about it because his 'jutsu' (puppets) are limited. Theres an evident lack in diversity for the puppeteer. He isn't ALLOWED to have the same versatility in combat as anyone else and thats not something I would compromise, its like compromising gender equality by saying the women can vote but only on Tuesdays. It doesn't make it fair, its actually just a little bit insulting to see the issue and then only half deal with it.

No compromise. I'm in no position to enforce or force the change but I will not support a compromising position because it makes no sense. Not a lick, the only way it makes sense is by ignoring the facts of the matter and I'm very bad at that. Normally I can sorta' see why people support the things they do but this baffles me because its just soooooooooooooo fucking obvious.

When I said that I felt puppetry to be one of the strongest disciplines available, I did so in full understanding of their 'restricted' versatility. Even though (as Euphoria kindly illustrated) they have a significantly larger arsenal than first appears, I could believe that some view this as a deficit. IMHO? They are pretty darn strong regardless. Since when was RPing just about numbers?

And since when was compromise a bad thing? Perhaps the one I meekly suggested wasn't the best solution but it was only ever meant to promote the notion and appeasing both parties. Your example (although a bit silly, really) raises a good point in that a full and satisfactory result is the end goal. But as you can clearly see, putting such a thing into place straight away is going to anger far more people - which is far worse for the forum than irritating one person. While I would like to see everyone appeased, your "all or nothing" approach will end with an even larger number of people being dissatisfied. If we take it slow and try to put these ideas into practice, we might soon see whether one party was more accurate with their suggestions. Small steps, guys. Small steps. You can't simply force someone to think the way you do. And even then, without practical evidence, you could actually be wrong.

Hageshii Ame wrote:: In fact, lets be creative. If anyone here feels like they could not only pose a threat to me, but actually defeat me, using a limited arsenal of 12 puppets against me and my arsenal of 'whatever-fucking-Ninjutsu-I-feel-like' (run through and Staff approved or course) then they are more than welcome, in fact STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to let me know and I would be absolutely elated to allow them the chance to show me how their position stands up in practical use. Any takers? Come at me bro.

Jokes aside, this is a good idea. Perhaps when we see more examples of puppeteers in combat then we can accept or refute these proposals with confidence.

In closing, I'd like to point out that puppetry and other specialities (say, Ninjutsu) are absolutely not directly comparable. For example, if we were to remove the puppet cap then what's to stop Kugutsu users from having limitless replacements whenever one of their creations is destroyed in battle? For a Ninjutsu user, the closest equivalent is that they actually will run out - of chakra. But surely puppetry requires some chakra too. But don't puppeteers have their other specialty to help chip away at their reserves? Yes, but it won't deplete as quickly and all the while their infinite resources keep them on top... do y'see? Very hard to actually compare them fairly.

Should puppeteers have fewer restrictions? Yes, probably. Should these restrictions be removed completely? Realistically speaking yes, but we should not do so without being fully informed and armed with evidence. To do otherwise is daft. Should then, to compensate, a restriction be introduced on how many puppets can be used in a battle? YES! In opening up such 'versatility' to Kugutsu users, we inevitably widen their resources to a level beyond what any other shinobi can attain (as they are limited by chakra - more so than a puppeteer). Puppets can keep on coming, jutsu cannot.

~Soph.

Subject: Re: Kugutsu Limitations Wed 01 Aug 2012, 5:31 pm

Puppetry is limited in a way other specialties are not for a reason. You're all treating Ninjutsu and puppets as equals when they clearly aren't. Jutsu are, with a few exceptions, single use actions with one focus. While an S Rank projectile Jutsu will obviously be more powerful than a C Rank projectile Jutsu, they still perform essentially the same function; launching a projectile. Obviously there are some techniques which serve both defensive and offensive purposes but like I already said, these are the minority.

Puppets on the other hand entirely separate 'entity' for lack of a better word. Sure they can technically be classified as weapons but the word really doesn't do justice to their shear versatility. Wielding a C Rank melee-focused puppet is almost like having complete control of a Taijutsu specialized Genin with the exception of the puppet lacking it's own chakra. That puppet is flexible in it's combat capabilities to an extent unmatched by any single Ninjutsu C Ranked or even B Ranked.

Extrapolate that with regards to S Ranked puppets and Ninjutsu and the same conclusions can be made. While S Rank Jutsu can be said to be far more immediately destructive, the amount of chakra they require often makes them trump cards to be used sparingly. S Ranked puppets on the other hand cost as much as an E Ranked one to use while still possessing the capabilities of the S Rank, making them infinitely more efficient than Ninjutsu, When you factor in the huge variety of weaponry, tools, defenses and support mechanisms which an S Ranked puppet can possess, this is no small advantage.

Besides, the scroll sealing system in itself limits the number of puppets a puppeteer can possess. Even if you completely burdened yourself down with scrolls as a Kage, the highest rank possible, I doubt you're going to come up with a physically viable combination of scroll sizes capable of holding more than 12 puppets. Of course, you can say that the rest of your collection is stashed back at the village but then how do you access them? Do you have to state which puppets you have sealed in which scroll before every topic? If so, how do you change them between topics? With a round trip to the village and back? Hardly a practical option. Summon them? At that point there's nothing stopping you from summoning all 50 or however many puppets you've made onto the battlefield at once and then just selectively assuming control of them as required which is completely OP in RP terms.

At the end of the day though, it really comes down to this: Until a time comes when a puppeteer on the site hits the 12 puppet limit and the rule actually becomes a limitation on a person's creativity, there's no point in debating it.

Posts : 1044

While I still have plenty of disagreements and more than enough capacity to express them, offensive metaphors included, I also have more or less stopped caring about the topic because I'm kinda' tired of restating what I've already said. Plus this will be my 1,000th post so I decided to make it different; instead of continuing I'd like to state that I am done with the topic and hopefully somebody higher on the chain reads up and gets something out of it. All the contribution was appreciated, sincerely, and I hope it all served some purpose whether it be understanding the rulings or changing of them.

GG bros, GG.

NSFW...I THINK...:

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

I planned to post on this the night Shinji did and he killed everything, if you aren't willing to respond to it, Hage and nobody else is willing to step up. This topic solves itself.

The Puppetry System has undergone a revision anyhow.

Age : 31 Posts : 92

Hey, Im new to this site and actually planning to create a kugutsu user and devote my time to this character. I've read through this thread and was just wondering when these revisions are coming into affect or if it just has. Thanks for the help. Smile