Advanced Element Summons Part Deux

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

See previous topic for Enzo's Initial points. Ignore all other posts.

Why not make it so that summons can access three elements, much like a standard Shinobi, but limit it so that they can only utilize one of these elements for techniques.

I.E: Toad Summon has Water, Earth and Wood Elements, but can only use one of them for all of their techniques. Creator chooses Wood Release, Toad summon can only use wood release.

Basic compromise really.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

inb4 shitstorm

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Enzo wrote:: shitstorm

How about no. What's the point of accessing elements, if you can't use them for jutsu?

Giving summonings advanced elements, most of which at the moment are KKG specific anyway (unless you're saying a Senju had sex with a Toad, in which case...), seems stupid. Summonings are quite overpowered already. (Maybe not at C Rank, but A Rank and S Rank can and very much are)

Also, I want a Toad with a sharingan if this gets approved :/

P.S Yes we have an SC for custom advanced releases, but that's an S Rank SC. By which logic, only S Rank Summonings could use Advanced Releases.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Why did you even quote me? I didn't say anything. Also please actually read the previous topic about this, as I provided perfectly sane explanations for why a Toad with wood release wouldn't be over powered in any sense of the word. The reason this won't work isn't because it's OP, it's because it would require a huge fix of the summoning system, which most of the staff doesn't wish to do.

http://www.ultimateshinobi.org/t12851-advanced-element-summons

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Mmm I still think giving Summons Advanced elements is iffy at best. As I mentioned, the SC that allows people to develop their own elements is an S Rank, so maybe this could be reserved for S Rank Summons only?

Then what you could do is allow summons (higher ranked) to have up to 2 elements. At S Rank, they would give one of those up (maybe?) and replace it with the Advanced Element. Kinda like how in the past, you could get a three-element form of your KKG that completely replaced the old one.

I just quoted the word shit storm, because I liked the template Wink

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Don't quote my template! Advanced Element Summons Part Deux 287405

It breaks the site.

On a related note: I don't mind if it's for S-ranks only, I just wanted it as a possibility. In fact, even if it was allowed, I would probably have only used it with A or S-rank summons. But alas, the problem isn't whether it's an overpowered idea or not. The problem is how "realistic" it is to the site. Because so many things on here are realistic.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

^ What Enzo said. Shinobi are allowed to rank up and gain new elements/combine them, so, like I said in the other post as did Enzo, why cant summons who have been utilizing chakra for centuries longer than Shinobi?

On that note: Lava Release has been noted in Shinobi (Canon wise) from Iwa, Kumo, and Kiri with no apparent relation, and Magnet Release (Canon) has been in Iwa and Suna. Again with no apparent relation. So its safe to say that Advanced Elements do not need to be related via clan wise, as theres 5 examples right there of not being related. Therefore we can attribute it to a random genome and thus say that summons can use them too. (Since Kage and Travis wanted to get technical about the genetics in the last topic, Ill solve that issue here).

Proof: Naruto Wiki Kekkai Genkai

Quote :: Although kekkei genkai are usually genetically shared within a specific clan, sometimes it is unique to one person alone, and that even family relatives do not share it, such as the Wood Release and Shikotsumyaku. Yet other kekkei genkai seem to appear in individuals with no known relation, such as the Lava Release, which has appeared in ninja from Kirigakure, Iwagakure, and Kumogakure, while Magnet Release, which has appeared in ninja from both Kumogakure and Sunagakure.

So, yeah. There is no reason why the Summoning system can not be reworked to have A/S Rank summon with two elements.

Proof: Shima As well as having two nature's since Canon dictates manga and not so much anime, otherwise Fukasaku would be here as well, they can also manipulate sage chakra. So that proves Canon S-Rank are allowed two elements.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Caranore wrote:: ...

You can quote those examples if you so wish. For all intents and purposes, they remain largely unexplained. Those relations (or lack of thereof) have not had an official explanation yet (and most likely never will, if one has in mind the proliferation of unexplained things). In short, everything relating to that, from the page you linked and quoted and any other, is nothing but speculation upon speculation, which is just about what everyone can do. In the end, it comes down to the size of the logical leap you are willing to take.

There is also the fact that the very bit you quoted serves more the other side of the argument than your own. If Kekkei Genkais and, more specifically, Advanced Elements were that abundant, what would be the interest in Hashirama's DNA and genetic information? Why would people be digging out, carrying around and injecting his genetic information into their own bodies, just to be able to utilize Mokuton, if there were other, easier, readily available sources to achieve that same purpose? One could argue that certain elements have their information coded into a genotype that is less complex and more likely to be repeated, but even then, this would strictly apply to humans. Humans have fairly similar and comparable genotypes and genomes, but the same comparison cannot be made between humans and other animals - which, from a biological and genetic point of view, stand far apart.

As for people of the same clan not exhibiting the Kekkei Genkai, that's what is called a 'recessive gene', in the dominance concept in the field of Genetics. But even all of this is fairly meaningless.

You know what was actually proved and stated, though? That Advanced elements were bloodlines. That the very mixing of two elements is a Kekkei Genkai, in itself. THAT is canon, not a logical leap, not an assumption based on largely unexplained basis. It was stated, as clear as day.

Spoiler:

Again, you can play this game all day and not reach a consensus. It depends on whether you prefer to take up assumptions with their basis on unfounded theories, utilizing logical leaps, even when they contradict what has been said before, or you'd rather take what has been strictly and directly stated in the canon, whilst attempting to wait for an explanation for whatever unexplained possible contradictions exist (which may or may never come, in the first place). I'm more of the latter, as you can tell.

But you want to play the assumption game? That's fine with me. Like implied before by me, the chances of two genetic makeups being similar enough to exhibit the requirements to possess these elements, between humans, is unlikely to say the least, especially in the more restrictive elements. Possible, but unlikely. But you know what's more unlikely? To have this similarity shared between a human AND an animal, especially non-simians, just turns into something that cannot be logically acknowledged from a probability's point of view, even when taking converging evolution into account.

But that's not the point at all, is it? I already said, previously, that this whole thing is moot and utterly pointless until it is accepted that three elements can be used, at some point, by one summon. Until then, I don't see this happening, ever. While I was not the one that wrote the current summoning rules and guide, it is fairly obvious to me that summons are not meant to be up to par to their full potential, canon wise, for balance reasons. They are simply meant to be an "add-on" to your own ninja, not an individual, fully fledged Ninja. For that reason alone, I'm not sure if anything like this will ever see the light of day.

As for your Shima and Fukusaku mention... I have absolutely no idea why you would even bring that up, as it was never in dispute. It has been stated before in numerous occasions that the element restriction is a balance liberty on US, not a canon restriction. Oh, and... Sage chakra is completely unrelated to this debate, in the first place, isn't it? Its use among the very animals that are credited with it's use is rather... pointless as a proof or argument to any side.

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

Just my own input, but I think summons are really fine the way they are in terms of elemental natures and stuff. It's true that the whole Magnet release, as well as Lava release users seem to have no relation to one another, but as someone who actually uses summons himself and based a character on it, I don't think giving Summons advanced elements (No matter the rank they have) is a good idea. Enzo, you said it would not be OP, but giving something an advanced element as opposed to one that only has a basic element is generally not that fair. I don't have to bring up how someone using wood release against someone who uses water release generally isn't nice.

That said, I don't think anything has to be remade at all, seeing as we really have enough to work with without giving animals an advanced element. All that will invite is people further breaking animal summons and breaking a system that really isn't that bad if you learn how to work with it. There are a lot of other things that should be looked at that have been previously brought up. The dimensions of the animals (To avoid the Log Snake) and sizes, whether animals that have poison as a part of their being such as reptilian species getting it without the need for medical ninjutsu, etc etc.

Really, there are other things that have been brought up that are not remotely being handled, so I say that kind of stuff gets handled before anything else gets worked on. Just my thoughts.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

@ Spectre: I explained in my previous post why advanced elements are not as OP as many believe. There are two main benefits to having an advanced element. 1. it provides you with a third element, something most characters don't have. 2. it provides you with a "shock" effect for your element. Most characters don't know how to deal with new techniques, and introducing them to Ice Release or Wood Release would be no different from introducing them to a unique shadow clone or a unique genjutsu. Additionally, your statement that a water user would have a tough time with a wood user is kind of irrelevant. Wouldn't a water user also have a tough time with earth release? But summons are allowed to have earth release... Oh and let's not forget, a Katon user will find it easier to deal with wood release than say a Raiton user, as burning the wood kind of weakens its very structure. Kind of like how a Suiton user would find it easier to deal with a Katon user than a Doton user would. Advanced elements have their own set of strengths and weaknesses, they're just not as clear-cut as the basic five elements. It doesn't make them necessarily more powerful, just more tedious to work around.

Also your implication that one thing is more important than another is incredibly subjective. I'm aware there are other summoning issues that are present. I never once implied I wanted this to be completed sooner, though it's honestly a much quicker fix (It just takes the editing of one sentence in the entire summoning guide). Regardless, the "Importance" of the rule is far too based on opinion. Maybe you want to make a snake summon, so obviously the dimension issue is more important to you. But what if I want to make a turtle that can grow trees on its back? Clearly that's a more pressing matter to me than the dimension issue. To kill an idea because it is not as important to you personally is incredibly selfish and corrupt. I do hope that's not how things are run around here.

As for Kage and Caranore's post, I don't have any comments.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Shima and Fukakasu were referenced for the argument against summons not having two elements.

That was an argument as to why summons could not manipulate advanced elements in the first place correct? That they were only allowed one element due to it being shown in the canon like that? Sage chakra was referenced for the sheer fact to prove that summons can handle a different, and more difficult type of chakra.

Back to the constant debate. I do not understand WHY you are so against something that would need a bit of assumption. I can promise you that there is some form or technology and theories in real life that initially needed a jump of assumption to prove they were correct. Being a moderator on a fantasy roleplay site means you need to accept some assumption provided it has a logical background.

Quote :: If Kekkei Genkais and, more specifically, Advanced Elements were that abundant, what would be the interest in Hashirama's DNA and genetic information? Why would people be digging out, carrying around and injecting his genetic information into their own bodies, just to be able to utilize Mokuton, if there were other, easier, readily available sources to achieve that same purpose? One could argue that certain elements have their information coded into a genotype that is less complex and more likely to be repeated, but even then, this would strictly apply to humans. Humans have fairly similar and comparable genotypes and genomes, but the same comparison cannot be made between humans and other animals - which, from a biological and genetic point of view, stand far apart.

I never said they were abundant, I was merely specifying the fact that KKG utilizing advanced elements do not require being part of a clan. Mokuton is rare and does skip generations, but stays within the Hirashima bloodline, which I do believe is specified in my example.

As to animal genome, this is a leap you are unwilling to take because it has not been logically proven in Canon that it could be possible. That is, is it not, part of the role play site, to allow creativity, and to also take bits and pieces of Canon theory and utilize them to make something entirely not canon, but so it makes sense?

Quote :: To have this similarity shared between a human AND an animal, especially non-simians, just turns into something that cannot be logically acknowledged from a probability's point of view, even when taking converging evolution into account.

Your argument here happens to contradict the point you were making. You did take evolution into account, correct? I did read that right. Therefore we can go by the basic theory that we share genes in common with pretty much all types of animals, correct? Humans are some absurdly high percentage related to a banana after all.

Now, since chakra is NOT prevelant in modern day society, again because this is a fantasy world, we can make no assumptions on what genes would be related. But if we take into consideration the amount of chromosomes a, for example, frog has, and a human has, and then the number in common, then we would also need to take a look at how much of the human, and animalistic genome we do not yet understand.

Now, summons can utilize chakra correct? How is that possble then, or logical? Because it was stated in canon? Since you have decided to go into the form of the genetic field to attempt to disprove an issue and question about a roleplay site, we need to address all of the factors.

Therefore, since summons can utilize chakra, lets attribute that to one of the unknown, yet shared, genes between all animals and humans, since we are allowing any type of animal summon jutsu, which means every animal and every human needs that same gene for manipulation. Without that gene, no one would be able to harness, feel, or utilize chakra.

And before this gets thrown at me, if we go all the way back to the Sage of Six paths, and the fact that his mother ate a fruit and gained chakra that way, and that is how humans gained chakra usage and learned about it (because the only way chakra was utilized was by the fruit of the Shinju who granted the person that ate it and it was grown every once in a millenium), then that brings us back to the original question of how summons can utilize chakra in the first place?

It is either they cant, yet the manga/anime has shown us that they can, or that they have been able to manipulate chakra for an extensive period of time, and humans just recently, due to the Sage, unlocked that gene for use.

So back to the original point after all that, which is really simple:

Humans use chakra
Animals use chakra
Ability of chakra but be linked through genetics due to the way the Sage obtained chakra
Canon proves that summons at high ranks can utilize more than one element
Bloodline limits are a genetic factor
Since Chakra is linked to genetics, and so are bloodline limits, the two would be intertwined under the same pair of genes. (I have yet to see or hear science prove that eye color is on a different gene and DNA sequence than eye sight therefore we can assume and accept that multiple fuctions and differences of the same object are on the same gene).
Since both animals and humans can use chakra, the gene is shared between all the species, which means the ability to combine elements is also shared.

Edit: Also, since you keep bringing up the "I doubt it will happen, please reference This Topic here, as that is a generic poll to see who wants summons fixed.

And honestly, if you are so sure that the summons wont be revamped to obtain advanced elements, why are you posting in the thread then? Im positive you have more beneficial work to be doing on the site than sitting here attempting to argue with me. If it wont happen then just let us bicker out our opinions, and everyone is happier.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Enzo wrote:: @ Spectre: I explained in my previous post why advanced elements are not as OP as many believe. There are two main benefits to having an advanced element. 1. it provides you with a third element, something most characters don't have. 2. it provides you with a "shock" effect for your element. Most characters don't know how to deal with new techniques, and introducing them to Ice Release or Wood Release would be no different from introducing them to a unique shadow clone or a unique genjutsu. Additionally, your statement that a water user would have a tough time with a wood user is kind of irrelevant. Wouldn't a water user also have a tough time with earth release? But summons are allowed to have earth release... Oh and let's not forget, a Katon user will find it easier to deal with wood release than say a Raiton user, as burning the wood kind of weakens its very structure. Kind of like how a Suiton user would find it easier to deal with a Katon user than a Doton user would. Advanced elements have their own set of strengths and weaknesses, they're just not as clear-cut as the basic five elements. It doesn't make them necessarily more powerful, just more tedious to work around.

Also your implication that one thing is more important than another is incredibly subjective. I'm aware there are other summoning issues that are present. I never once implied I wanted this to be completed sooner, though it's honestly a much quicker fix (It just takes the editing of one sentence in the entire summoning guide). Regardless, the "Importance" of the rule is far too based on opinion. Maybe you want to make a snake summon, so obviously the dimension issue is more important to you. But what if I want to make a turtle that can grow trees on its back? Clearly that's a more pressing matter to me than the dimension issue. To kill an idea because it is not as important to you personally is incredibly selfish and corrupt. I do hope that's not how things are run around here.

As for Kage and Caranore's post, I don't have any comments.

No offense, but all I see up there is that you're taking things out of context. There is no way in which you can prove to me that having an Advanced element is not generally better than having a basic element. After all, it is an "Advanced" element, and in my opinion, advanced elements have always been part of a clan, not of an animal summon. Though I have to admit that I have only been going through this particular thread, I have never seen animal summons with an advanced element, all we have seen so far were summons mixing their element with that of their summoner to have an Advanced Element-like effect, but never did they have one on their own that I am aware of.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Why does everyone quote me for things I'm not even arguing anymore Advanced Element Summons Part Deux 287405

And of course advanced elements are better, I even listed the reasons why they're better. They have the element of surprise and grant the user a third element. But that's it. If advanced elements were "overpowered" then they wouldn't be on this site. What I'm trying to prove, is that advanced elements are not overpowered, and a summon having advanced elements wouldn't be overpowered. Especially if the requirement is for the character to have said advanced element. It would be no different from a character sharing an element with their summon, because well let's face it, that's exactly what would be happening. As for "We never saw it in the canon therefore it's invalid." I believe Kage pointed it out before. For the sake of balance, the canon is frequently ignored. Howcome summons are only allowed to have the element of their user? Didn't Gamabunta use Suiton even though Naruto could only do Fuuton? Drawing conclusions based on what the canon said is not always a brilliant idea. If it's fair and balanced, the real question should be why not have it.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Enzo wrote:: Why does everyone quote me for things I'm not even arguing anymore

And of course advanced elements are better, I even listed the reasons why they're better. They have the element of surprise and grant the user a third element. But that's it. If advanced elements were "overpowered" then they wouldn't be on this site. What I'm trying to prove, is that advanced elements are not overpowered, and a summon having advanced elements wouldn't be overpowered. Especially if the requirement is for the character to have said advanced element. It would be no different from a character sharing an element with their summon, because well let's face it, that's exactly what would be happening. As for "We never saw it in the canon therefore it's invalid." I believe Kage pointed it out before. For the sake of balance, the canon is frequently ignored. Howcome summons are only allowed to have the element of their user? Didn't Gamabunta use Suiton even though Naruto could only do Fuuton? Drawing conclusions based on what the canon said is not always a brilliant idea. If it's fair and balanced, the real question should be why not have it.

Its because of your template. Which breaks the forum and is highly amusing.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Enzo wrote:: Why does everyone quote me for things I'm not even arguing anymore

And of course advanced elements are better, I even listed the reasons why they're better. They have the element of surprise and grant the user a third element. But that's it. If advanced elements were "overpowered" then they wouldn't be on this site. What I'm trying to prove, is that advanced elements are not overpowered, and a summon having advanced elements wouldn't be overpowered. Especially if the requirement is for the character to have said advanced element. It would be no different from a character sharing an element with their summon, because well let's face it, that's exactly what would be happening. As for "We never saw it in the canon therefore it's invalid." I believe Kage pointed it out before. For the sake of balance, the canon is frequently ignored. Howcome summons are only allowed to have the element of their user? Didn't Gamabunta use Suiton even though Naruto could only do Fuuton? Drawing conclusions based on what the canon said is not always a brilliant idea. If it's fair and balanced, the real question should be why not have it.

Because in this case, the fact that it was not implemented on the site and has never been a part of the Manga or Anime just goes to prove that Summons with Advanced elements are not and most likely should not become a thing.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Jawsome wrote:: Because in this case, the fact that it was not implemented on the site and has never been a part of the Manga or Anime just goes to prove that Summons with Advanced elements are not and most likely should not become a thing.

I am going to refer you to my post vs Kage.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Caranore wrote:: ...

But the Shima/Fukusaku thing was never an argument in the first place. I don't think anyone argued against it being canonically possible for summons to have more than one element?

When leaps of faith and logical assumptions come, I go for the smaller ones. And, to me, the simplest premise is simply that those possible contradictions are unexplained and, as such, should not be taken into account that easily. Assumptions are just that - opinions made by people, based on their point of view and perspective and without any substantial proof as basis. Anyone can come up with their assumptions. Who knows, maybe all of those Lava users are distantly related. You can't just say, one way or another. And if US is to accept assumptions as fact, then it should do so on it's own, through a thought-out process to ensure things work. Not accept something at face value merely because other people think it so.

The other assumption is based on a whole premise that remains largely unproven. Not only that, it directly contradicts something that has been previously said. Again, between taking something as a fact without proof that goes against established facts or merely preferring to disregard it until a solution is found, I'd rather go with the latter.

But that is neither here nor there. This isn't about me and my opinion. I just provided it as a contextual basis for the rest of my arguments.

I didn't claim, either, that they needed to be part of a clan. Only that they were genetic-dependent. That may mean they are encapsulated by a whole clan, belonging to a bloodline, or merely that they can only be utilized by a single individual - like Hashirama, being the only one with the correct genetic makeup to utilize Mokuton naturally. That was my argument, nothing else.

Mokuton doesn't stay in Hashirama's bloodline, I'm afraid. Mokuton is a unique ability belonging to Hashirama only, so far, in the canon. If you recall, Tsunade is a direct descendant of Hashirama and she exhibits no capability whatsoever to utilize Mokuton. Again, which is why everyone is so eager to steal a piece of the old, dead man to get access to Mokuton - because only his unique DNA can produce that particular element.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean with the Animal Genome part. All i know is that creativity is to be encouraged as long as it doesn't start infringing upon the balance of the site, the rules that are already made or some, basic canon ideals that cannot be ignored. It is that 'but so it makes sense' portion that makes the whole difference between good creativity and bad creativity. Something that contradicts the canon does not make sense, in my mind. Other than that, if you want a free-for-all in creativity.. hey, just look over there at Ingoo and how it has always turned out, through it's existance. It doesn't get any more "creative" than that.

As for the evolution bit, you didn't quite get it, either. I never meant I never used the evolution theory. I said that it was unlikely EVEN if you did consider the converging evolution. Those are two entirely different things. Evolution, in itself, is what you are thinking of. Of course I would include evolution, it's impossible not to. Convergent evolution, on the other hand, is what is called when two completely unrelated groups of animals develop similar biological structures that aim to achieve the same purpose, through natural selection. This isn't to say converging evolution wouldn't play a part in this whole conundrum, only that EVEN if you take that into consideration, the chances are still ridiculously insignificant.

I wasn't attempting to disprove anything, really, because there is nothing to disprove. Conjectures do not need to be disproven. It was merely a theorization regarding the sheer chances, from a probability point of view, regarding an animal having the same coding genome regarding advanced elements as humans. You misunderstand. I never even tried to imply upon that whatever gene sequence codes these elements is strictly unique to human. To over simplify it in a reductive manner, I merely meant that between humans, the different sequences for each segment are the same and, as such, you only need to take into account the number of the different sequences and their percentual occurrence, as well as the concepts of dominance and recessiveness and multiply them to get the probability of a certain gene manifesting. When you bring animals to the mix, you not only have to account for all of those, BUT also you need to account for the possibility of that sequence being part of the shared gene sequences between whatever animal species and humans beings and take it as a fact (as only that way would the advanced element manifest on both human and animal), as well as the manifestations of the other sequences that a human does not possess, and vice versa. This highly increases the number of possibilities which, in turn, lowers the chance of something of the likes happening. That was all.

Finally, your bullet point summary is fine and dandy, but there are some serious fallacies in there.
Since Chakra is linked to genetics, and so are bloodline limits, the two would be intertwined under the same pair of genes. You have no way of knowing that, and that is nothing more and nothing less than a false analogy fallacy. Just because two things (possibly, mind you) share a trait, this does not guarantee that they are related or that they manifest in the same manner, in the same way, and in the same circumstances - or at all. That, in itself, completely destroys whatever argument you were trying to build, as your final conclusion is built upon a faulty foundation that proves absolutely nothing.

I seriously cannot understand why you people keep trying to push this so hard when, clearly, not even the most basic circumstances for it to be even considerable are met. Summons are not to be acknowledged, on US, as fully fledged ninja in the true sense (apparently). Summons cannot have two elements, let alone a third, advanced one. Summons cannot have bloodline limits.Talk about putting the carriage before the horse, no? How about putting all of this effort into the actual revamping of the system, instead of being headstrong regarding a detail that cannot be seriously taken into account until (and if) such a revamp occurs?

Oh, and just a final thing - I never claimed summons wouldn't be revamped. Never claimed the system would never see changes. In fact, I agreed to the creation of the very thread you linked me to, though all the credit for it obviously goes to Mugen. I only claimed that I think it's unlikely something of this sort (read: advanced elements on summons) would be applied, especially when, as explained above, the conditions are not even right. You would do well to bother trying to understand people's reasoning and arguments, before jumping to conclusions, as I found myself correcting you more than once regarding what I was saying and what my arguments were. I keep posting because I want to, and because it's equally my duty as a creation mod to try to clarify these things, to the best of my knowledge and understanding of both the canon and the site rules. Just because I don't think something will happen does not mean it justifies for me to completely ignore it - especially when pretty much everyone else is already doing so.

But seeing as things are going and how you're building your arguments, it is unlikely I will reply further to your points alone, until other things have been introduced into the discussion, as this conversation is quickly turning into a circular argument and we're borderline derailing the thread itself.

Enzo wrote:: Howcome summons are only allowed to have the element of their user?

As far as I was given to understand, it is to avoid people being able to cover the whole spectrum of elements. For example, a character possessing three of the basic elemental natures and, then, possessing a summon with the remaining two. That is, once more, merely what I was given to understand.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Quote :: Advanced Elements require 2 elements. Summons are allowed only 1 element.

Quote :: seriously cannot understand why you people keep trying to push this so hard when, clearly, not even the most basic circumstances for it to be even considerable are met. Summons are not to be acknowledged, on US, as fully fledged ninja in the true sense (apparently). Summons cannot have two elements,

From the locked, previous topic. And your post. That references the Shima/Fukakasu. I fail to understand how the connection is not made and you are confused. My point is, and this has been my MAIN point, and beginning point, in all three posts I have mode in the topic regarding this now:

Canon summons can have 2 elements. Why are our summons on this site not allowed two elements, at least at S-Rank, when it has been proven its possible?

Quote :: Since Chakra is linked to genetics, and so are bloodline limits, the two would be intertwined under the same pair of genes. You have no way of knowing that, and that is nothing more and nothing less than a false analogy fallacy. Just because two things (possibly, mind you) share a trait, this does not guarantee that they are related or that they manifest in the same manner, in the same way, and in the same circumstances - or at all. That, in itself, completely destroys whatever argument you were trying to build, as your final conclusion is built upon a faulty foundation that proves absolutely nothing.

And Ill get yelled at for this later, but you can not prove against this argument either, and since this is a fantasy forum, theres nothing saying I was wrong, or you were right. And if you take it at face value, then it makes sense and logically works. But then again, why do we need to get down into genetics in Naruto? Going all the way down to Genetics, to prove a point, quite literally is the equivalent of sifting through sand on a beach to find a trace of dinosaurs. Its a meaningless subject to go down that deeply to explain why something cannot be, when we could just work around it otherwise.

And to answer your question about why Im pushing for it so hard, is merely 3 reasons.

A). Im bored.
B). It now seems to be bugging you, so thats honestly a reason for me to keep going. (We are rarely going to see eye to eye on most topics, I can see this now)
C). Im bored.

I really do not care if summons can used advanced elements, but when something like this pops up, then I need to contribute because theres a line that gets drawn, and causes the topic to go into a circular pattern. That line here, is because we have dropped into genetics to discuss this argument, instead of sticking with Trey's initial point. Why cant we allow it? Or allow it in a moderated and formatted way that allows the summons to not be over powered, because it is quite obvious that we can do that.

Also, my bad on the convergent bit. Totally misread that.

The only thing I care about with summons, and this is a whole different argument, in a whole different thread, that I really do not feel like doing right now, is whether you need Ninjutsu or not to summon. Which is, as you saw, what I posted in response to Travis's initial post, so like I said, thats a whole different debate.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Since this topic isn't actually about balancing anything, and is more or less "why we believe it should work" vs "why we believe it shouldn't", can we just agree to disagree and move on? I don't even care anymore to be honest. When I started the topic (in the other thread) I thought "This would be a cool idea to have, so why not have it?" What I was expecting was backlash on it being too powerful, since that's usually the case with anything proposed on US, but instead of a compromise, the idea was immediately rejected on the grounds that "It never happened in canon" and "The rules said so." While I disagree with the notion that "because it isn't that way in the canon it can't be that way on the forum" (see: Senju clan and Kaguya clan for reasons why; or hell, just read the SC list), the bottom line was that, as Travis stated "The rules don't allow it."

This topic was created to (I assume) try and suggest a way to make the rules allow it. I mean, the rules allow someone without a clan to acquire an advanced element, don't they? Even though we know without a shadow of a doubt that is impossible in the canon. Yet it exists on the site. Why? Because it's a fun idea to play with, it's interesting, and bottom-line, it's not gravely overpowered. Those same notions, in my opinion, apply to summons having advanced elements. It is merely a suggestion worth pondering. It doesn't necessarily make any sense, but neither does the advanced element SC and we have that. If it's fair and balanced, and of course has a place in Naruto, then the idea is worth considering, is it not? I mean, would you honestly be surprised if Kishimoto introduced a 500ft penguin that spits ice?

Also can someone please explain to me what Toad Oil is if not an advanced element? Because it sure as hell isn't something that Toads can produce on their own. I can't seem to find a single wikipedia article that says toads, or any amphibian for that matter, are capable of spitting oil.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

A 500 ft penguin that spits ice.... I wish he would. That would be utterly hilarious.

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Caranore wrote:: It now seems to be bugging you, so thats honestly a reason for me to keep going. (We are rarely going to see eye to eye on most topics, I can see this now)

Well, thank God for that, as that is all I read to know that this discussion has reached such futility that it became even more pointless than it was in the beginning. While you're not bugging me in the least, as I actually partake in pleasure from these discussions, it has been made more than clear that you're merely arguing for the sake of arguing, which is rather sad. Furthermore, for you to display such clairvoyance capabilities is interesting, to say the least, as it shows this streak of being argumentative just out of spite will be a repeated occurrence. But hey, at least now I know what to expect upon checking your creations in the future, and that actually attempting to base my rulings will be rather fruitless, as you'll attempt to be contradictory just for the sake or arguing, no?

With that in mind, I'll simply wait until someone who's actually interested in legitimately trying to contribute to the discussion appears and introduces new ideas that haven't been discussed to death already before jumping in again.

P.S. - just a friendly tip: the duty to prove something is upon those trying to make a claim, not those trying to disprove it. That's why it was a fallacy. And that which you're doing now ("you cannot prove it being wrong, either") is, also, another fallacy: the Burden of Proof fallacy. You cannot, for example, ask of an atheist to disprove the existence of God - it's up to those who want to believe in God to prove it's existence. But hey, I don't really expect you to comprehend this, either. But you might want to Google it, so you don't completely screw up your arguments - in two consecutive posts.

Cheers.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Don't want to sound idotic and such but. "While I disagree with the notion that "because it isn't that way in the canon it can't be that way on the forum" What makes it so that canon solves everything that could happen on an Rp site? I mean. Like he stated, clanless characters can have advanced elements with SCs. Canon also does not say that it "can't" with summonings having advanced natures. So it's not really denying that Summons can't have it, but it also doesn't say they can have them. (I could be wrong since it's been a bit since I read the manga XD) I come here to have fun, Rp a character that I made and enjoy progress. I mean. If you guys allow someone to have biju, or Edo Tensei eventually, what would make summonings having Advanced chakra techniques OP over those jutsu/forms? They are already limited by size, and what they can and can't do. Summonings on most sites are either under Fuunin, or just straight up summoning jutsu. How could it not happen that two different animals (Same species) With different chakra natures IE: Suiton/fuuton create an Ice element summon? Meh. I probably didn't make sense, but I thought I would throw something in there..

Age : 32 Posts : 1912

LIMIT SUMMONS TO PEOPLE WITH THE SUMMONING BASED JUTSU SC!!!

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Advanced Element Summons Part Deux E9d10fec-418e-4572-a058-2c2bdbe21793_zpsd2d4ae47

If I had a week I couldnt list all the reasons why that's a bad idea. The Summoning SC is designed to show a mastery over the usage of Summoning, not allow you to use it in general.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

^ that