Advanced Element Summons

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

I remember this rule since before I even joined US, and it has always bugged me. For those that aren't aware, there is a single sentence in the summoning guide that states "Summons cannot possess advanced elements". Now I can understand why this rule makes sense in the case of say, a character without an advanced element. However, why does this rule also apply to those that actually have said advanced element? Why are Senju denied the right to make summons that can have Wood Release, and Yuki denied the right to make summons with Ice Release? Summons are restricted to 1 element as is, and this wouldn't be obstructing that rule. They'd still have 1 element, it just wouldn't be one of the five generic elements.

On top of that, advanced elements on their own aren't unbelievably powerful or anything. What makes advanced element clans powerful is two fold: Their shock effect (most ninja don't know how to deal with an advanced element) and the fact that characters start with a third element. Both bonuses only make the characters indirectly powerful, the element itself can be beaten as easily as Katon or Fuuton by a ninja who's aware of its potential.

So I ask again, why are summons not allowed an advanced element? They're not acquiring the other two elements needed to make it. The summons could easily be limited to only their advanced element. Like a turtle that can grow trees on its back, but not spit out water or earth. And on top of that the advanced element doesn't serve as a shock effect anymore, since by then the user would have probably used their advanced element, and the enemy would be completely aware that they have that ability. With the major bonuses of the advanced elements completely obsolete for a summon, why exactly is it not allowed? If summons are supposed to be extensions of the character, why can they not have the same elements?

inb4 segregation toward other clans. Other clans can't have their ability copied via an SC. The comparison is invalid.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

+9000

Age : 34 Posts : 718

Does it make sense for a summon to use an advanced element and not the two that make up it's base? I sympathize with the cause, but I wouldn't want summons to have advanced bloodline elements if they weren't able to have both basic elements involved. Otherwise, how is the summon generating a chakra nature that is a fusion of two others.

There are a lot of reforms I'd like to see around summons, the biggest of which being the limitation on summons only having the same elements as the summoner. However I don't think allowing them to have advanced elements will really change much in the long run. It's like treating the symptom when the cause is how summons are approached as a whole:

As if the very basis behind what they are needs game balancing.

I don't think you'll get advanced elements for summons passed unless you get staff to change the very foundations of the current summoning system. I wish you luck in such efforts as I'd love to see it happen. But sadly I don't think it will because it would threaten the delicate balance of "fairness" which is currently being maintained by staff. It's their job so I don't blame them...

I lost my train of thought. Anyways, tl;dr: I support this, but I don't think it's a real solution. Summons are nerfed in a lot of ways for the sake of keeping things "fair" but since everyone has access to them I say that's just paranoia! REFORM SUMMONS!

Posts : 1729

Advanced Elements require 2 elements. Summons are allowed only 1 element.
Advanced elements are acquired through one of two means; through the Elemental Control SCs, and through a KKG.
- Summons are not allowed SCs, so the first method is out.
- The second method would imply that, somewhere down the line, one of your ancestors fucked an animal and it gave birth.

Good enough reasoning?

And Mugen, not everyone has access to summons. If Ninjutsu isn't one of your specialties, you'd have to wait until S-rank in order to get the summoning jutsu, and then you'd only be allowed one summon. Compared to the average Nin user's potential 4 (5 if they have the Summoning SC).

Age : 34 Posts : 718

BK-201 wrote:: And Mugen, not everyone has access to summons. If Ninjutsu isn't one of your specialties, you'd have to wait until S-rank in order to get the summoning jutsu, and then you'd only be allowed one summon. Compared to the average Nin user's potential 4 (5 if they have the Summoning SC).

Granted. But most people who don't go for Ninjutsu tend to pick up Fuuin, Medical, or Puppetry and end up getting their own specialized set of perks that other shinobi can't access. Even if someone goes Tai/Wep they get extra physical SCs.

Still, I can see how overwhelmed a non-Ninjutsu user might feel should their opponent ever summon several large beasts at once. I haven't changed how I feel about summons needing reforms. Rather this just adds one more item to the plate of things I wish were different. But if wishes were fishes we'd have 10 oceans full.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

As much as I'd also like summons possessing advanced elements, I'll have to agree with Travis' argument. Even if summons could possess the two elements needed to create an advanced one, that would mean they'd have a unique bloodline, a KKG, which is something that on this site is (unfortunately, and not correctly) restricted to clans, not individuals. That means characters cannot possess a KKG if they're not members of a clan, and of course that makes KKG summons a topic out of the question.

As for Ninjutsu being the only means to summon, isn't summoning through Fuuinjutsu also possible through an Encyclopedia technique?

Posts : 1729

I think I know what technique you're talking about Panda; I created it.

To clarify, the technique I'm thinking of allows you to "seal" a summoning jutsu, attached to a particular summon. Thus, if Ninja Arthur "seals" a summon for his summon animal, Bob. Ninja Clarence, who has the summoning jutsu but doesn't have a contract with a summon family, is given this "sealed" summoning by Ninja Arthur, performs the Summoning Technique, and Summons Bob for a single topic.

So if I'm right in that's the jutsu you're thinking of, it still requires you know the Summoning Jutsu at some point.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

BK-201 wrote:

Advanced Elements require 2 elements. Summons are allowed only 1 element.
Advanced elements are acquired through one of two means; through the Elemental Control SCs, and through a KKG.
- Summons are not allowed SCs, so the first method is out.
- The second method would imply that, somewhere down the line, one of your ancestors fucked an animal and it gave birth.

Good enough reasoning?

No.

The fact that the summons don't have access to two elements is not a /canon/ reason, it's a /balance/ reason. There is absolutely no canon evidence to suggest summons can only use one element (mostly because the canon has only shown a handful of summons). Now, a summon that has an advanced element but not the constituent elements (ie. Hyouton but not Fuuton or Suiton), does not make canon sense. Just like how having only 1 element per summon doesn't make canon sense. I suggested it for balance reasons, not because it's supposed to make sense. I don't want summons to have three elements, which is why I suggested a work around. For the sake of balance. I assume this is what your problem with my suggestion was. If not, then that whole first point is completely irrelevant. As I pointed out, there is nothing "OP" with summons having advanced elements.

Now, your other point is a little less relevant. First off, I'll completely ignore your bestiality reference and point out that: Summons have chakra too. Summons are shown to grow older with time. Summons can reproduce (otherwise there would be none left). Would it not also stand to reason then, that summons can pass down their genetic code to their offspring? And if so, does that not grant them a bloodline in the most bare bones sense of the word? Is it so hard to conceive that a summon could develop a KKG in the same way that a human could develop a KKG? Somewhere down their family tree a summon was able to use Wood Release. From then on, all of their offspring were able to use Wood Release. Kind of like how clans work.. right? The notion that a human has to have sex with a summon for them to have a KKG is simply absurd.

Also let's not forget that a Kekkei Genkai is no longer required to have an advanced element. Of course, this is irrelevant information since summons can't use SC's, but if a human is able to mold their chakra and create an advanced element, then surely a creature many years older and more experienced could do the same, no? But alas now I'm comparing canon reasons with balance reasons, which US has shown time and time again don't have to work together. (See: Uchiha, Bijuu, every forbidden jutsu, etc.)

But really, how a summon obtained their advanced element shouldn't matter. As long as it's balanced and fair. For instance, it's never explained how a Kaguya can regrow their bones at a speed faster than an S-ranked medical ninja could heal someone. Or how a chakra tether no wider than a string is able to lift a 50lb puppet off the ground and through the air like a five ounce yo-yo. But because it's fair and balanced, we accept it. If advanced element summons are fair and balanced, what exactly is your problem with them existing?

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

BK-201 wrote:

Advanced Elements require 2 elements. Summons are allowed only 1 element.
Advanced elements are acquired through one of two means; through the Elemental Control SCs, and through a KKG.
[list]
Summons are not allowed SCs, so the first method is out.
The second method would imply that, somewhere down the line, one of your ancestors fucked an animal and it gave birth.

Obviously you did not read all of Enzo's post, where he specifically stated that the summons would just get the advanced element, therefore negating the need for the two elements. Since its also a summon, so long as you provided an adequate description, you can also negate the need to have a special characteristic. Its not that hard if you dont take everything at face value. How can toads use Sage Chakra but no other species can as far as we know? Same concept. Theres nothing stating that it COULDNT be done.

Quote :: And Mugen, not everyone has access to summons. If Ninjutsu isn't one of your specialties, you'd have to wait until S-rank in order to get the summoning jutsu, and then you'd only be allowed one summon. Compared to the average Nin user's potential 4 (5 if they have the Summoning SC).

Kuchiyose No Jutsu is available to everyone, of all ranks, of any specialty Travis. It has been that way since the site opened in 2010, and has stayed that way. That was the entire point of the summoning jutsu, to make it fair across the board so that any one has access to it. Just because it is a C-Rank Ninjutsu, and this technique is the only exception to the rule, does not require the Ninjutsu specialty to use. Being an Ex-Mod, you should know this.

Third, before I get back to the topic at hand, why do you always post in forum assistance and start being such a basic bitch in every post like you are much better and superior to everyone else?

Back to the topic at had though, provided the summon for the Yuki clan (as an example) is related specifically to ice and the cold, and Senju to wood, etc, I agree with Enzo. Now on that note, some advanced elements (like the Yonbi Jinchuriki) shouldnt be allowed for summons. Thats more of a bijuu specific thing anyways.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Caranore wrote:: Back to the topic at had though, provided the summon for the Yuki clan (as an example) is related specifically to ice and the cold, and Senju to wood, etc, I agree with Enzo. Now on that note, some advanced elements (like the Yonbi Jinchuriki) shouldnt be allowed for summons. Thats more of a bijuu specific thing anyways.

I agree. Any advanced element that would be denied for the SC (like sand and lava release), should be denied for the summon. Actually, I think it's defacto denied because no one could actually acquire those advanced elements without the Bijuu anyway.

Posts : 1729

Point one was listed because that's the way things are, at this moment. Even if it wasn't explicitly stated that summons are not allowed advanced elements, it still would not, under the current rules, be possible, because an advanced element is a mixture of TWO elements, and under the current rules, summons can't have two elements.

So if you want to argue for summons having Advanced Elements, firstly, you have to win the fight of allowing them more than one element.

And I listed the "sex with an animal" notion because it's absurd. In order for, say, a toad summon to have Wood Release, A) Somewhere along the line, a Senju screwed a toad, and somehow was able to have offspring, or B) Somehow, out of the countless trillions of possible DNA combinations of two vastly different species, a line of toads and a line of humans both stumbled across the precise same genome for having wood release. From a statistical perspective, it isn't very far shy of being just as ridiculous as the first example.

Is there room for summons to have their own custom KKG? Possibly. Is it possible for a summon to share a KKG with a human clan? Absolutely absurd.

Edit, Because Caranore Sniped Me.

A summon can't get "just" the advanced element, because advanced elements explicitly need two elements in order to be formed. It would make absolutely no logical sense for a summon to be able to use Ice Release, but have no access to Water and Wind release, the two components of it. It's like arguing that someone can just have a sandwich without combining either bread or fillings.

And before you try to insult my knowledge, Caranore; show me where, precisely, it explicitly states that anyone can have the Summoning jutsu. Show me the precise, listed rule, where it states that, in bare flaunting of the non-specialty jutsu limitations, anyone can have Summoning Technique.

And when have I "been a bitch" in this topic? What have I done, and how have I insulted anyone, in the course of this discussion? I wasn't aware that explaining the rules, as they are, constitutes being a "bitch."

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

I still don't understand why it matters how the summon obtained their advanced element. There are plenty of things on this site that don't make IC sense (like most clans), or are highly improbable (like the absurd number of characters in a clan compared to the number of clanless characters.). So what if it is? How does that infringe on anyone's RPing? How does it infringe on the rules at all? The odds of having a Bijuu are supposed to be 1 in some few hundred million. But on this site, there are what, two people out of 40 that have a Bijuu? And I'm being generous here. It doesn't have to "make sense". If it's fair and balanced, then so be it. In a setting that completely throws probability out of the window, "the odds" of a summon having an advanced element shouldn't even be debated.

And I think you're missing my point in regards to the 1 element rule. They still have only 1 element. They don't have two elements or three elements or four. Only 1, and that 1 element is their advanced one. Maybe because it is a summon and not a human, they cannot manipulate the elements that make up their advanced element. Maybe because it is a summon and not a human, it does not need two separate elements to create a new one. Kind of like how bone creation of the Kaguya doesn't require any specific elements. You could name a whole possibility of reasons as to why summons are excluded, if it suits your need for a solid reason as to "why", but in the end it doesn't really matter. They still only have 1 element. They can still only use that 1 element. This isn't avoiding the rules at all, it's merely loopholing them.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

Enzo wrote:: I still don't understand why it matters how the summon obtained their advanced element. There are plenty of things on this site that don't make IC sense (like most clans), or are highly improbable (like the absurd number of characters in a clan compared to the number of clanless characters.). So what if it is? How does that infringe on anyone's RPing? How does it infringe on the rules at all? The odds of having a Bijuu are supposed to be 1 in some few hundred million. But on this site, there are what, two people out of 40 that have a Bijuu? And I'm being generous here. It doesn't have to "make sense". If it's fair and balanced, then so be it. In a setting that completely throws probability out of the window, "the odds" of a summon having an advanced element shouldn't even be debated.

And I think you're missing my point in regards to the 1 element rule. They still have only 1 element. They don't have two elements or three elements or four. Only 1, and that 1 element is their advanced one. Maybe because it is a summon and not a human, they cannot manipulate the elements that make up their advanced element. Maybe because it is a summon and not a human, it does not need two separate elements to create a new one. Kind of like how bone creation of the Kaguya doesn't require any specific elements. You could name a whole possibility of reasons as to why summons are excluded, if it suits your need for a solid reason as to "why", but in the end it doesn't really matter. They still only have 1 element. They can still only use that 1 element. This isn't avoiding the rules at all, it's merely loopholing them.

Honestly, from my point of view, loop holes like that make a forum look like it's of poor quality. Good design isn't born from arbitrarily throwing your source material out the window for the sake of balance. Your argument is falling into, "Lets just make up stuff so this fits!" and that is never the right way to go about balancing a game OR a story. It hurts the forum both on the systems front and on the IC front.

Like I said before, I want the same think you do. But I don't think this is the right way to go about it.

Age : 35 Posts : 1492

Show me, Travis, where it says that you specifically need Ninjutsu to use the Summoning jutsu? Like I stated, from the time the site opened, the Summoning Jutsu has been able to be used by anyone, of any specialty. Therefore, unless it has been specifically stated, I see no reason why it isnt the same. I do not see a need to repeat myself about why that was the case.

I also specifically stated in Forum Assistance. Not this topic specifically, but in the forum assistance in general, which is where I normally see you post and, well, act like a bitch. I also do seem to recall you being an utter ass to quite a few people when you were on staff because "you just simply did not want to deal with them" or something along those lines. You were quite an ass in the chat box talking to regular members asking questions too. So, back to the START of this paragraph, , why do you always post in forum assistance and start being such a basic bitch in every post like you are much better and superior to everyone else?

But, to answer your question about this topic:

Quote :: The second method would imply that, somewhere down the line, one of your ancestors fucked an animal and it gave birth.

Good enough reasoning?

And then there is the whole thing about Mokuton Jutsu being 1 element that you just dont seem to be comprehending. (Mokuton was an example).

Let us break this down shall we?

Ice Elemental Jutsu: In order to utilize this jutsu, one needs to use Ice Elemental Chakra. Which, yes Ice Elemental Chakra, in humans, is a mixture of Water and Wind Chakras, correct?

Therefore, like Enzo said, it would be safe to say that within the summoning realm, there DO exist summons that can utilize Ice Elemental Chakra. Because it needs to be mixed within the human ninja.

Now, once Wind and Water Chakra are mixed, you can not physically or mentally, or anything, separate them, correct? Therefore, the newly combined chakra, which has been mixed within the human chakra system which would be different from an animals chakra system would be classified as a new, and single element.

Again, like Enzo ALSO said. The summons have essentially been around, and manipulating chakra for a much longer time than humanity has. The only reason that humans can manipulate chakra is because of the Sage of Six Paths. Therefore it stands to reason that the form of chakra was around for centuries before, during, and after. So, how could a summons chakra system, which would be completely different from a humans, be UNABLE to take and create an advanced element type of chakra? Please dont reference "We havent seen it" or "The site doesnt say so."

And Mugen. The entire site is a gigantic loophole if you look at it objectively. If you agree and want the same thing, then suggest a better way to go around it as compared to merely complaining about it.

Age : 30 Posts : 1688

Summons here are just all kinda of weak, small, limited, and hardly useful

Age : 34 Posts : 344

Seriously guys?

Just like BK said, this whole discussion is meaningless until (if that ever comes to pass, that is) summons are allowed to possess more than one element. They cannot be possessed without the two basic ones and, therefore, a summon that is limited to one element only could not ever possess, say, Mokuton without possessing Suiton and Doton. I repeat, this is canon. There is no such thing as a "wood element" without Suiton and Doton chakra, which are fused to make Mokuton.

Not to mention, BK is also right - again - regarding the whole genome thought process. Generally speaking, Advanced elements are, in one way or another, genetically linked. They are dependent on one's genetic information, which is why they are considered Kekkei Genkai in the first place. This has been stated before in the canon material. That's where that very SC, the one which allows for someone to acquire an Advanced Element, is flawed and contradicting, in my opinion. But that's a different story for a different time - summons cannot possess SCs, just like stated before, and as such, that is not a factor in this discussion.

So no, without the necessary genetic information coded into one's DNA - and the two relevant elements -, I'd say no amount of experience or training would allow one to achieve this.

Arguing that something like this should be allowed merely because the "one element thing is not canon" is equally pointless. If it's there for a balance reasons, chances are it wont be changed unless a complete overhauling of the system occurs. And, until then, this whole topic's premise is moot. Logic (canon and otherwise) needs to go hand in hand with balance, not be inversely proportional to it. Reasoning matters, it should've always mattered, and it sure as hell matters to me. Perhaps it hasn't always mattered, in the past, but that is an onus that rests on previous staff that made it so - some of which are weighing in in this discussion and arguing rather fiercely with that premise as ammo.

Again, anything besides this, at this point, is completely useless and pointless. To further discuss it, especially while degrading yourselves to petty insults and genital measuring is quite sad, to be honest. And that is not to mention the whole derailing of the original topic of discussion, with multiple arguments occurring at once at this point.

BK, I'd advise you to steer clear of this conversation, or I could see things turning even worse than they already have. There is no need for you to immerse yourself even further into this, thank you for attempting to explain things and answering the question at hand.

Caranore, language, please. BK has not insulted you and, as such, you have no right to do so either. Uncalled for personal attacks are something I will not stand for. If you don't have anything nice to say about someone, I suggest you stick to the discussion at hand. Consider this your warning.

And seeing as a good part of the people that are participating in this discussion are seemingly more worried about coming on top rather than actually attempting to discuss things logically and to attempt to reach a consensus, thus leading this topic to become an utter mess, this topic has now been locked, as the original question has been answered multiple times already.

If anyone is interested in continuing this discussion, feel free to do so responsibly - in a new thread, without all the arguing and especially without all the personal attacks. Discussions are meant to be used to reach a consensus or to transmit your point of view to the other side, in hopes that they see it and accept it as the most logical reasoning. They are not meant to be used simply to try to prove someone wrong or the means of bringing that person down.