Travis wrote:

Aight mother fuckers. Let's roll.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Sit down and educate yourself. As I always do, I'll start with the first post and work my way down, addressing comments in regards to what each person has posted in this thread and/or misconceptions that have spawned outside this thread.

Travis:

First of all, get over yourself. The 'bet' between Eric, Chris and I was a joke which spawned as a result of knowing how certain people, especially you, like to blow issues entirely out of proportion with exaggerated examples, making a mountain out of a molehill if you will. Also for the record, your displeasure with the changes to the No Seals SC is not 'backlash' one person making a logically flawed argument is not backlash. If the displeasure was site-wide, the case might be different, but no the system was not altered and put into practice with the assumption that there would be a large amount of displeasure in regards to it so you can stop spouting your false assumption to anyone who will listen.

Secondly, I have/had no idea what SC edits you proposed to do, only what was implemented and still needs to be fixed. The changes to sensor were made after I had a conversation with Enzo regarding said special characteristic and further implemented with only input from Alex, Enzo and myself, thus your proposed changes from your previous tenure on staff were not considered and thus served no influence in making the changes to the sensor SC. However, with that being said, I commend you if they your changes to the Speed SCs... 'faster than a cheetah' lets disregard all logic entirely why don't we.

With that being said, moving on.

As opposed to being opened to all techniques D - rank and below. The No Seals SC is now limited to a maximum of eight techniques up to A rank with an exuberant amount of training. These techniques cannot be changed or altered once they have been selected and they must be selected when each stage of training is completed. Moving on, I will admit that the SC in theory is a little 'over powered' (a word which I use hear to mean "slightly above the current power ceiling" as opposed to how everyone seems to use it to mean "game breaking, Kyuubi Sage Mode Sharingan Power Up") however, not to the extent that such a large deal must be made over this and I (unsurprisingly) feel rather insulted to think that the power of this SC was not considered before I wrote, reviewed and subsequently published the alterations.

If you really want to play the technique by technique game, you might want to get better at it.

Great Fire Ball Technique: Yeah, I will concede being able to do a fireball without warning is ridiculously annoying and presents a huge advantage. However, that's the benefit of being able to perform an surprise attack. That being said, the large intake of air that you must perform prior to expelling a fire technique from your mouth is a bit of a dead giveaway, not to mention to perform a fire technique without the control gesture [Reference] results in a largely uncontrolled flame with only a meager travel distance [Reference I] [Reference II] as compared to the more controlled alternative. The gesture which need I remind you is common in most fire techniques found in the Manga short of Amaterasu, not just Great Fireball. Once again I must reiterate that the large intake of air is kind of a dead giveaway given that this technique cannot be performed without that exercise in breath control. The inhale required and as shown in the Manga is a bit more than a 'faking a large yawn' as shown they inhale the largest amount of air possible as it is crucial for their techniques. Further as you have failed to take note of in your bad attempt at citing examples, the intake of air is almost universally explicit to sucking in the air as to compress it, not a wide intake as one might expect from a yawn, further it must be done in conjunction with the hand seals (or in this case chakra focus) not after, nor before, thus blatantly obvious.

Mythical Fire Phoenix: The fireballs from this technique have scarcely any actual power as in terms of power it is equal to that of the above mentioned technique but split into smaller forms. The same mention about the intake of air, and the focus gesture apply. Arguably both are more important given the projectile nature of this technique.

Mist Waltz Technique: Was noticeable in the filler from which it spawned I believe, that being said the technique is due for some much needed clarification. Beyond that I will agree this technique serves a large advantage when included within the no seals, however once again the focus gesture as referenced above is used. The technique will be altered to a shorter range with the due edits (given that it is listed used as a short range technique) meaning without the focus gesture it would more than likely consume the immediate range around the user. If you need me to point out more information on how this is a bad idea you might want to ask Rukasu as to why igniting an explosive gas in immediate range of your person is a bad idea.

Earthen Rising Spears: I must admit beyond the lack of seals required, I do not believe that the element of surprise really applies to earth techniques, as I believe that Alex said below, a vast majority of all earth techniques are used as 'surprise' techniques. One can scarcely be constantly prepared for an attack from the very substance that they are standing on. Although with that being said, one of keen observational skills might take note to the ground shifting beneath their feet, which means there must be some form of allotted reaction.

Water Prison Technique: Because it's a common ability to be able to summon water from nowhere? As I recall only the Second Mizukage was capable of summoning water in such a regard, thus this example only really serves to be a valid point if you happen to be standing on or within the immediate vicinity of water, at which point you might think you would be a little more prepared.

Great Breakthrough: Another one due for clarification edits. I believe its solo usage amounts to a strong breeze, which would easily be countered by a certain common ability that allows for a Shinobi to stand or walk on surfaces that might otherwise be rather difficult to do so.

Akimichi and Kaguya techniques: Citing techniques that don't require hand seals as an attempt to prove why a No Seals SC is 'over-powered' (which I use here in jest to mean "ZERMAGER BROKEN")... did you perhaps misplace your observational skills ?

Nara Techniques: Given that the staple Nara technique [i.e Shadow Imitation] only requires one hand seal, only requires one seal it would be rather pointless to apply it to No Seals given that it already benefits drastically from both One-Handed Seals and Blurred Hand Movement. Not to mention you have to be caught by the technique unless you lack the brains to position yourself properly and allow for your shadows to overlap from the start, at which point you pretty much deserve to die. If I do recall correctly Shadow Neck Bind requires Shadow Imitation to be in effect before it can be utilized, thus your example is once again moot.

Yamanaka Technique: Hmmm, I wonder if my opponent falling over might be a hue clue to what technique they are using ? There's a reason that the Yamanka usage is always done in a support or team play fashion, because without being previously locked down, it's damn near impossible to hit a target that is not either mindless, trapped or otherwise locked down. I guess theoretically it could be a problem, however the Mind Transfer Jutsu is less of a problem. Further, need I remind that Sakura beat the technique by sheer force of will? That being said, I can see reason to revise the SC in a small degree in that it will only apply to the standard twelve hand seals (and their one handed variants) rather than clan specific ones.

To move on to further address not only the techniques that Izayah has mentioned but also a few specific and general examples of my own.

Shadow Clone Explosion:Show Clone Variant, one seal. Removing that one seal only presents a minor advantage. Secondly assuming you create a clone within the allotted five meter range and immediately detonate it, it might be an issue, but need I return back to my previous point about detonating an explosion when you are nearby being a strategical no-no?

Zetsushi Nensan - Tongue Tooth Sticky Acid: Yes. For the first time, yes this might actually be an issue. HOWEVER, this technique also violates several rules established for techniques, was originally used by a Slug in Canon and is due for near immediate removal.

Doku Kiri - Poison Mist: Usefulness is entirely negated by the need to stop and insert the poison into your mouth.

Canon Fire Techniques: Nearly every canon fire technique is marred by the requirement to inhale a massive amount of air, which in almost any situation is quite suspicious.

Canon Earth Techniques: Disregarding the one technique mentioned above, a majority of the earth techniques are defensive in nature, none of them allotting for an instant or perfect defense. Swamp of the Underworld is a bit problematic, but not belligerently OP.

Canon Water Technique: Require either a source of water or water to be expelled from the mouth, in the later case the huge inhale much like fire techniques require, is a also a dead giveaway.

Canon Raiton Techniques: A majority of the meager amount of Raiton Techniques only grant a slight advantage in the basis of surprise, granted this judgement is largely impeded by just how badly explained majority of the lightning technique are. Raiton Gian, slightly more of an issue, but I return to the fact that it initially only requires one seal (snake) which when considering both one handed seals and blurred hand movement, once again does not gift the technique with a huge advantage.

Wind Release: Given the nature of Wind Release techniques, I must concede that the do gain a significant advantage from this technique, however all techniques cannot be taken at face value given that nearly all of them need to be edited in some regard.

In Regards to Custom Jutsu: You cant really argue for or against the 'OP' nature of custom Jutsu without first seeing the jutsu in question. Theoretically every custom jutsu could be over powered and every custom jutsu could be under powered... Schrodinger jutsu if you will. As it stands the A - rank and possibly the B - Ranks as well will be allowed or denied based on moderator discretion in regards to all techniques, but most specifically custom.

Moving on.

Chris wrote:

Extending it to A Rank is however taking it too far in the other direction.

I thought about that, I really did. As I said in the staff lounge when completing a minimal revision to the SCs, I offered a choice between all C - Rank techniques or a grand total of the eight you can obtain now. The initial concept intending to expand upon how hand seals work in the Manga, as they are used as a means of focusing your chakra, not too dissimilar to training wheels on a bicycle, in that they coach you through the process of utilizing the technique. From there, the more familiar you are with the technique the easier the chakra manipulation the easier it is to do, hence less hand seals, it explains why the Hand Seal Requirement of nearly every frequently used technique has drastically decreased and explains as to why Tobirama was able to use a technique which normally requires thirty-seven seals with only three. That being said, the one possible A - Rank technique does increase in a meager way the general lethality of those with this SC, but I do not really think that it is 'broken.' In most combat scenarios between equal combatants it would not even press a huge advantage, obviously this is less true in situations that transition between a social thread to a combat thread in which someone decides to be an asshole. But in such a situation anything that can be used whilst attracting a meager amount of attention is generally really powerful. I can't really account for every possible situation of usage (in regards to placement of the characters not technique choices), but the more stupid ones (I.E the ones Travis keeps citing for examples) are only problematic if your character is dumb enough to put themselves in said situation.

Travis wrote:

"Sensing pressure" from a jutsu build up is by far the worst metagaming excuse I've heard yet. Yes, there is "conjuration," to use the Skyrimiffic term, but unless the person "conjuring" is actively using hand seals, or the person watching the conjuring is a Sensor Nin or has an active Byakugan, or even the jutsu has an active, specifically visible charge up, like Chidori- then it is effectively invisible.

The ironic part about Travis considering something Meta-gaming is how he seems to repeatedly imply that just because a hand is hidden means that a Jutsu is being performed.

That being said, in regard to the 'conjuration' build up for techniques, it will be elaborated on in the soon to be released Combat Guide.

Travis wrote:

Not to mention the fact that having to hide your hand, at the very least, takes more conscious effort to conceal, and provides actual opportunities to notice and counter, compared to No Seals.

Interesting how said opportunities to notice and counter have been pointed out by others in this thread but you have largely chosen to ignore them, or in your ignorance misconstrue how they actually function.

Travis wrote:

This is not about how much of a problem No Seals poses once the fight has actually started; this is about the fact that, with the right jutsu at your disposal, No Seals can end the fight before your opponent even realizes it is a fight. If you're in the middle of a conversation with someone, you're not going to be expecting them to suddenly spit rock-dissolving acid in your face; when the battle is underway, you're of course on the ready and on the alert for potential attacks, but again, that's not the point. No Seals, no visible build up; absolutely no warning whatsoever that your conversational partner has turned hostile until the first jutsu flies, and more often than not, being caught that flat-footed will leave you dead.

So by that logic we should ban the Kaguya and Akimichi clan as well? The issue here is only one of both character concept and player choice, I cant imagine any trained solider who would put themselves in such a leisurely and passive situation with someone who would be likely to commit such a dick move.

Travis wrote:

Second, Nagato "sensing pressure;" to say nothing of the possibility that he could have said any number of things then and there, given it's a translation, there is further the matter of it is Nagato. Have you seen what the Rinnegan is capable of? Six Paths bullshit? Not to mention it apparently shares ties with both the Byakugan and Sharingan? In short, there are simply way too many variables and suspect circumstances to appropriately use him as an example.

I'll grant that Kabuto was not in Sage Mode; but, he was in the process of using Edo Tensei to control the various undead shinobi. I find it highly likely that through this connection, he can sense when they're up to shenanigans.

So wait, once again your attempt at logic has one big gaping flaw. Nagato has an ability that is god-tier at that point in the Manga, so we must disregard all of his actions and assume that he doesn't follow the normal functions that we have seen in the Manga? But we should draw conclusions in regards to Kabuto based on no evidence at all and an asinine assumption?

Breaking from topic. Zack shut up. You offer nothing of substance to this thread beyond fueling a fire that shouldnt even be there.

I could go on for about how Travis makes gross assumptions without logic and assumes he's right, and how his 'victories' in this thread are misconstrued, but it's been a long day, Im pushing 2800 words and as it stands both Izayah and Alex have already said everything I have said or would need to say so I close with this.

Without more viable arguments, the SC will remain the same with a few edits. As it stands the SC will apply only to Ninjutu, Medical and Fuuinjutsu, with the latter still requiring placement or contact if applicable, but not to Genjutsu given that allowing for an instacast Genjutsu without limitation is OP (which I use here to mean "Broken OMG KYUUBI SAGE NARUTO WITH SHARINGAN".) The Jutus choices will be reviewed by staff upon applying for the SC and can be denied or approved on any reasonable basis.

Solved.