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A silly idea of mine

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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

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PostSubject: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 5:31 pm

I am not sure if it is a remotely decent idea, though I still think that it is worth throwing out there for people to see.

A while ago, I was asked if I thought it was a good idea to allow people to purchase SC's instead of having people train for them. Personally, I thought it was a good, yet lazy option for those people that are just about done with all their training threads that kill writing muse. Now, my idea is kinda like it, but reversed a bit.

For the people who like writing things out, like training their SC and how they get their weaponry, etc etc, I figured that we might as well do something for jutsu. Since SC could only be gained by training and now have the option of purchasing, I think it might be a good idea to let people train for their jutsu instead of only having the purchasing option.

I think that people may be a bit conflicted about it, but I just want to say to those people that "If you can buy a special characteristic that influences your entire character, why can't we train for jutsu like they did in the Manga and the Anime?". Personally, I think it would be a good idea to allow this as it is a way around using funds, just like using funds is a way around training. This way, I think people will be able to progress their character's arsenal through actual training, as well as purchasing.

Now, I guess it is open for people to either agree, disagree or ridicule it.

Edit: Something I should have said earlier, but it is also a good thing for the people who do not currently have anything to RP with or anything to RP about the chance to write about them learning new jutsu from someone or making their own techniques in character, which I think is a good thing.


Last edited by Hiruzen on Wed 25 Feb 2015, 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ruka
Ruka

Age : 28
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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 5:35 pm

I kind of like the idea, I mean the whole point of AF is to encourage people to RP right? Well if they RP the training for their jutsu I suppose that would make it a bit more fun for those deeper roleplayers who want to write that sort of thing and it would also fit the purpose that AF have without making it obsolete. I'd dig such a thing being implemented.
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MsMoney
Wanderer
MsMoney

Age : 33
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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 5:48 pm

The downside to this is the fact that it'd require even more reading for Staff = It'd take a whole lot longer to get approved and perhaps even manage to make the workload a bit heavier. They recently changed the eval system to avoid that ... so I honestly don't know if this would be a good option for anyone whom was feeling impatient about having their stuff approved. x)

However I don't have anything against the idea itself. It would be more fun at times to simply train the Jutsus - I noticed that myself as I have to train my Jinchuuriki Jutsu.
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Persy
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Persy

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 5:56 pm

For all the jutsu that require training as they actually affect my storyline, I write out entirely, even after purchasing it and then I simply throw that topic up for eval as my preferred thread.

I honestly don't mind the idea of offering people the option of training jutsu, but as MsMoney said - it puts more pressure on the staff team which is currently incredibly small.

Generally though, for those that purchase jutsu often, I find those ones are frequent RPers and it isn't necessary to save the AF as they replenish it easily enough.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 10:04 pm

Most of what I've got to say has already been said. I love being the idea of being able to train jutsu, but staff is barely keeping up even after implementing the new eval system(Its wednesday and the evals from Fri-Sat are still not graded. Same goes for jutsu I posted a week ago.)

While I am super into the concept, available funds get the job done as far as jutsu obtainment. I'd suggest letting this sit on the back burner until staff becomes more stable. Until then, just do as suggested above and use the training for your jutsu as preferred threads to earn more AF to buy more jutsu~
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyWed 25 Feb 2015, 11:27 pm

While I agree, I don't think the heavy workload should be a reason as to deny it. Sure, staff has a lot on their plate, but that is because 4 people pretty much need to do everything lately. I am sure that once the members of staff have risen to a more steady number, which could really be any day now regarding the amount of people that signed up, this should be a good thing to include.

Like you guys said, it is fun to write things out, and I get that it can be written out after the purchase has been made, though I think the training thread itself should also be giving the jutsu as a sort of reward at the end. In the case of my sword, I wrote a rather large thread about obtaining it, as well as my Kenjutsu techniques before purchasing them because it just felt better that way.

Again, if SC can be trained And purchased, I don't see why the same should not be possible for jutsu (Aside for the undermanned Staff reason, which is actually a good one).
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Chris
Chris

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 1:02 am

Out of curiosity, what sort of word requirements would you suggest for training the various ranks of jutsu?
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 2:56 am

Not something i've been giving any thought to yet, and won't be giving any thought to until the point where I know it will actually matter. I'm not really interested in wasting time on something that has not yet been taken into consideration by staff.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 2:57 am

Without referencing the word requirements for SC trainings and other similar things(I don't know them off the top of my head and am too lazy to go searching for them atm since this isn't an urgent issue.) this would be my recommendation.

Do note that the min word req. for posts is 300 words, so while an E-rank training requirement is less than that, the post would need still need to meet those requirements.

E Rank: 150 words
D Rank: 300 words
C Rank: 500 words
B Rank: 1000 words
A Rank: 1500 words
S Rank: 2000 words

I'm sure you probably weren't asking me, but I thought I'd throw this out there anyways.
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NuclearTreerat
NuclearTreerat

Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 3:12 am

As a side note to this discussion before AF was used this is how purchases of jutsu & equipment were handled here. At the time, I believe, the required length was comparable to the minimum post based for a character of rank equal to the technique - 250 words, 350, etc up to 650 for S-rank.

Personally I found it a pain in the rear. Mostly due to staff insisting that the required length had to be comprised of the actual "training" part. For the small stuff - D & C ranks, it wasn't terrible but when you started having to belt out 450-600 words describing molding chakra for the 4th time it got old rather quickly. Not to mention it tended to result in many training posts becoming buried in tiny details just to make the count

Now I wouldn't mind this as an option but ideally I would like to see some caveats to make the process less of a pain. For both sides. Chiefly the staff simply taking the whole posts length as the required so if - for example - 1/4 the minimum is taken up by setting the scene it still gets counted towards the minimum. The second being not requiring a minimum score (ala third-spec) and a simple "is the post long enough, did it relate to the technique/ item/ etc" check that is either pass fail.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 4:07 am

NuclearTreerat wrote:
As a side note to this discussion before AF was used this is how purchases of jutsu & equipment were handled here. At the time, I believe, the required length was comparable to the minimum post based for a character of rank equal to the technique - 250 words, 350, etc up to 650 for S-rank.

Personally I found it a pain in the rear. Mostly due to staff insisting that the required length had to be comprised of the actual "training" part. For the small stuff - D & C ranks, it wasn't terrible but when you started having to belt out 450-600 words describing molding chakra for the 4th time it got old rather quickly. Not to mention it tended to result in many training posts becoming buried in tiny details just to make the count

Now I wouldn't mind this as an option but ideally I would like to see some caveats to make the process less of a pain. For both sides. Chiefly the staff simply taking the whole posts length as the required so if - for example - 1/4 the minimum is taken up by setting the scene it still gets counted towards the minimum. The second being not requiring a minimum score (ala third-spec) and a simple "is the post long enough, did it relate to the technique/ item/ etc" check that is either pass fail.

I'm glad you brought this up actually as I forgot about it being an issue. How much of a word count should be actual training and how much could reasonably be other stuff.

On past forums, the most efficient way of approaching this that I've seen is to simply not worry about how much of the word count is actually "on-screen" training. The idea is that you make the whole "point" of the "training" to be that the RPer is doing written effort for the trained ability.

I'd suggest a requirement that some mention of your training method be in your training thread but that the training itself could take place "off-screen" should you wish. In addition, the thread must contain at least one use of the completed ability/technique.

With something like that, people could worry less about HOW they are training an ability and instead focus on writing a fun to write narrative surrounding the technique and how it came to be. In my experience people would use this approach in all kinds of creative ways such as showing off the first time they used the ability in a fight or showing what kind of situations they went through in order to deem it necessary that they develop it in the first place. It gives more narrative freedom surrounding trainings and makes them potentially enjoyable rather than feeling like a chore.
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Ulkira
Nukenin
Ulkira

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 5:43 am

If memory serves me right, prior to the introduction of the Experience System, the words counts for training jutsu were something like this:

E-Rank: 0 words
D-Rank: 150 words
C-Rank: 250 words
B-Rank: 450 words
A-Rank: 800 words
S-Rank: 1000 words

Now, I personally disliked writing training threads for jutsu, as I found them to be more tedious and repetitive than Special Characteristic training. On the other hand, as Nuclear said, so long as the method of learning jutsu through training topics is an alternative rather than the only option, then I'll be indifferent to its existence. If people really wish to RP out a jutsu's training, then by all means, let them do so. However, I will agree that it will only increase the Staff's workload. I would prefer their limited availability be directed towards other things, but that's my biased opinion.

The way I see it, if someone wants to make a topic for training jutsu, than I believe Becky's suggestion is the best: simply write up the post, and submit it as a social. You get both character development, and Experience Points. Granted, in the end, it would be the same as submitting a training topic for a jutsu - with the main difference being that you earn more EXP and AF's, rather than just save AF's.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 4:32 pm

It is supposed to act as an alternative for the people who don't get to RP all that much, as well as for the people who want to write out their technique creation/gaining. With the new Evaluation system that pretty much tells people to store up and send in all of their stuff at once so it would take less time finishing it, I figured it would fit in perfectly. As for whether or not post counts, I personally find myself agreeing with what Mugen said.

Mugen wrote:
E Rank: 150 words
D Rank: 300 words
C Rank: 500 words
B Rank: 1000 words
A Rank: 1500 words
S Rank: 2000 words

It makes you write quite a bit, though the amounts you would have to write would not be unfair, especially when you consider what you'd be getting in return. And like I said, SC used to be written and in the distant past, so did jutsu. Now jutsu can no longer be trained for while SC can be trained for and purchased. I personally see no reason as to why the same could not be done for gaining Ninjutsu.
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Chris
Chris

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 4:51 pm

Looking at the suggested word counts, my concern is that training C Rank Jutsu and below is just going to produce really short, shitty posts devoid of any point or quality. What can we fit into 500 words exactly, especially if we go along with Mugen's idea of ignoring "on-screen" training? Character wakes up, character goes to the training ground = the End. I feel bad for anyone who has to read that. It's like you want the staff to fall into depression.

I guess the posts do become more meaningful at B Rank and onwards, but I'm guessing that's the point where 95% of the members will just pay AF.

Not to mention the clutter this will produce where actual, interesting topics that should be read, will get buried under "Chris Jutsu Training #15" and so forth.

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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 5:04 pm

Well, while I understand what you're saying, the same thing can be said for SC training threads that don't have any real content and are just, as you'd put it, "Chris SC Training #15". With something like SC training, there are no real things that have to be pulled aside from the fact that it has to go from point A to point B in terms of training their desired characteristic. With jutsu, it should not be all that different because people will be working to create and perfect a jutsu for themselves.

As for whether or not it will be interesting to read, well, that will be up to the writer entirely as they get to decide whether they wish to slack off and do nothing but add crap until they reach their word count or want to actually work out a bit of personal progression, some fluff and make an attempt at making it interesting for the reader. And yeah, I do agree with you on the matter of lower ranking jutsu, but realistically speaking, Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura learned a basic tree climbing jutsu in like... one episode while Naruto spent several episodes learning rasengan and a LOT of episodes creating his Rasenshuriken. While they are examples of the Canon, which really is not much to go by, people who are smarter and more skilled such as Kakashi or people who have the Sharingan to make it easier for them, learning a jutsu comes easier.

So, when given more thought, how about something like this:

E Rank: 250 words
D Rank: 450 words
C Rank: 650 words
B Rank: 1000 words
A Rank: 1500 words
S Rank: 2000 words
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Chris
Chris

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 5:13 pm

With this word count, you're putting a C Rank Jutsu at a higher level to a C Rank SC, which just seems crazy, considering SCs characterise something unique to your whole character, developed (presumably, perhaps more accurately, nurtured) over years (/long periods of time), whereas a Jutsu can be learned in a few days (or hours even). I know that on US most people learn an SC over a few days as well, but the point still stands, that SCs should take you a lot longer to acquire IC-wise.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySat 28 Feb 2015, 5:27 pm

Well, it is what it is. Nothing put in here is final anyway because I am not a member of staff. People stated they liked this and some people stated they did not like it, so right now, it is up to staff to decide whether they want to work with this or not. After all, the same thing more or less happened when SC were made into training&buying, people liked it and people disliked it. So really, this should not be that different as that passed too.
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NuclearTreerat
NuclearTreerat

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 4:37 am

Do keep in mind that there is nothing stopping someone from putting in MORE words than strictly required. Same with the reason why while 250 words is the minimum for a genin-rank post most people end up doing considerably more. The key would be requiring that the post be relevant to the technique - either in training, useage, acquisition, etc. Plus making too long a count is no guarentee of quality - in fact it can encourage the opposite as the writer starts throwing in too much detail to reach the required count.

Personally I would say keep the word count around the old one except at the highest tiers (A & S) but still less than what Hiruzen suggested. If only because at 2000 words for 1 technique its going to reach the point of monster posts and its inevitably going to be compared to the cost of training to the few S-ranked SCs.


. That way the spread of techniques stays more in inline with the idea that A & S-ranked techniques are more of trump cards than stuff you "spam" constantly.
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Enzo
Kumo Nin
Enzo

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 9:45 pm

This was a discussion I remember having with the staff back when the EXP system was first being implemented. To make it clear before I go on: I'm heavily against allowing training for jutsu. It's been a couple years, and I've become more lazy since then, so I won't throw out the same fleshed out argument I used to convince the staff years ago, but I will summarize my view in a few points.

Allowing training makes EXP obsolete. I don't think I really need to elaborate much on this, but I will anyway because based on a brief skimming of this topic it appears people are mostly for this idea, and as my role of devil's advocate I have to provide a compelling counter-argument. Anyway, if we allow both training and EXP, the whole purpose of the EXP system goes out the window. Speaking as one of the founders of it, the purpose of the system when it was conceived was two-fold.

One, it served as a relatively simple way of getting people jutsu. You just RP a bit and your reward is a new technique or item. No more tedious writing to get the jutsu you want. It would also allow the staff to give out 'free jutsu' in a meaningful way. After events or simply as rewards for being good members (see USOTM and etc.), the staff could hand out EXP that the member could use however they wished. When it was announced that members could spend EXP on SC's, I thought it was a splendid idea. It gave members more options for which to spend their points on. The reason this was a good idea, is because EXP is still valuable, if not more valuable, now that SC's are another option to spend it on. I'll go into detail later as to why SCs are different from Jutsu, but the main thing to take note of is that SCs have a finite value. A character can only have 6 SC's total, excluding professions. Jutsu on the other hand, one can have an infinite number of. Which brings me to the second purpose of the EXP system.

It kept characters from becoming absurdly overpowered in incredibly little time. This was a big problem way back when training was the only way of getting jutsu, weapons, summons, etc. Genin, fresh off the boat with their 15 jutsu limits could immediately acquire a dozen or two very versatile jutsu. There was no penalty. The only limitation was that you had to RP the training, but writing up a few thousand words of training is a cake-walk for any half-decent RPer. And this would be especially dangerous to the individuals who were above half-decent, and knew how to exploit the system. By A-rank, there was nothing limiting characters for applying for 5 A-rank jutsu on top of the 20 B-ranks they already had and 50 C-ranks they added to their character whenever some small idea popped into their mind. There was no sense of risk-reward. Your character would just grow infinitely powerful in short spans of time and with what can objectively be defined as "little to no effort". Seriously, training is not a penalty or even a deterrent to someone who wants to RP. Writing up SC training can be difficult, but jutsu are hardly that. Just spend a few hundred words writing about how the character uses the jutsu, explain what it does, how it reacts to the environment and what small weaknesses it has and boom. There's 2000 words. The solution that EXP brought was that people had to be very careful and wise about which jutsu they acquired. They couldn't just get 10 new jutsu right before a fight to help them win. With EXP, there are sacrifices members have to make; choices that have some unappealing consequence. If you had 15EXP, you couldn't get both a powerful offensive jutsu and a powerful defensive jutsu. You have to focus on either going offense or defense until you can earn enough to get both. But even once you got enough for both, you could instead focus more on offense and improve your strengths instead of going back and covering your weaknesses through defensive jutsu. I hope I'm making sense here, but basically: EXP forces characters to make decisions based on their abilities, instead of having an infinite arsenal with little to no penalty. And mark my words, training is absolutely NOT a deterrent or penalty.

Now you may be wondering "Enzo, what the fuck is your point?" And to summarize, my point is that EXP provides incentive to RP and be a good member, and it also provides a limitation for characters to become overpowered. The moment we allow training as an alternative to EXP, it loses both of these fundamental values. No one needs to really try during an RP topic anymore because funds wouldn't actually matter when the alternative is writing up a few hundred words. Likewise there's no incentive for character building when members can just jack their character up with a million and a half different jutsu to cover every single blind spot just before a big fight.

Now to address the main argument I've seen used to defend this idea: Special Characteristics. More specifically, how they have a clause that allows for both training and EXP spending on them. But as I mentioned earlier, SCs are finite. You can only have a certain number of SCs. Having more free time or being able to write up several thousand words really quickly does not give you an inherent advantage over someone else, because in the end both of you will only have 3 SCs as Genin. It's an even playing field. For the analogy to work, Jutsu would also require a finite limit to them, but not only would that suck, it would be a huge deterrent to creativity. You can only have so many jutsu. Why bother being creative and creating this combination attack that uses 3 different jutsu when instead you can save 2 slots and just get 1 slightly more powerful jutsu? Being forced to spend EXP for jutsu means that you can have the best of both worlds. You can have this complicated as hell 3 jutsu attack, AND you can have this powerful ass jutsu without having to sacrifice one over the other. The only thing stopping you, is YOU. The effort you put into RPing is the only thing keeping you from acquiring those jutsu, not some dumb system the Staff in their infinite wisdom decided would be a cool idea.

Bottom line, having both training and EXP diminishes the value of EXP to the point that it's not even necessary. The only thing anyone would need EXP for is limited techniques, and those can't even be apply for anymore. Not that it matters because anyone applying for them would have so much EXP saved up from training that the EXP limit wouldn't even feel like a motivation or restriction. There's a reason the EXP system is in place, and it's not because the staff are too lazy to read your crummy training topics.

Trey you better give me an A+ on this essay or I will murder you.
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Kiseki
Konoha Nin
Kiseki

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PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 9:51 pm

Enzo wrote:
This was a discussion I remember having with the staff back when the EXP system was first being implemented. To make it clear before I go on: I'm heavily against allowing training for jutsu. It's been a couple years, and I've become more lazy since then, so I won't throw out the same fleshed out argument I used to convince the staff years ago, but I will summarize my view in a few points.

Allowing training makes EXP obsolete. I don't think I really need to elaborate much on this, but I will anyway because based on a brief skimming of this topic it appears people are mostly for this idea, and as my role of devil's advocate I have to provide a compelling counter-argument. Anyway, if we allow both training and EXP, the whole purpose of the EXP system goes out the window. Speaking as one of the founders of it, the purpose of the system when it was conceived was two-fold.

One, it served as a relatively simple way of getting people jutsu. You just RP a bit and your reward is a new technique or item. No more tedious writing to get the jutsu you want. It would also allow the staff to give out 'free jutsu' in a meaningful way. After events or simply as rewards for being good members (see USOTM and etc.), the staff could hand out EXP that the member could use however they wished. When it was announced that members could spend EXP on SC's, I thought it was a splendid idea. It gave members more options for which to spend their points on. The reason this was a good idea, is because EXP is still valuable, if not more valuable, now that SC's are another option to spend it on. I'll go into detail later as to why SCs are different from Jutsu, but the main thing to take note of is that SCs have a finite value. A character can only have 6 SC's total, excluding professions. Jutsu on the other hand, one can have an infinite number of. Which brings me to the second purpose of the EXP system.

It kept characters from becoming absurdly overpowered in incredibly little time. This was a big problem way back when training was the only way of getting jutsu, weapons, summons, etc. Genin, fresh off the boat with their 15 jutsu limits could immediately acquire a dozen or two very versatile jutsu. There was no penalty. The only limitation was that you had to RP the training, but writing up a few thousand words of training is a cake-walk for any half-decent RPer. And this would be especially dangerous to the individuals who were above half-decent, and knew how to exploit the system. By A-rank, there was nothing limiting characters for applying for 5 A-rank jutsu on top of the 20 B-ranks they already had and 50 C-ranks they added to their character whenever some small idea popped into their mind. There was no sense of risk-reward. Your character would just grow infinitely powerful in short spans of time and with what can objectively be defined as "little to no effort". Seriously, training is not a penalty or even a deterrent to someone who wants to RP. Writing up SC training can be difficult, but jutsu are hardly that. Just spend a few hundred words writing about how the character uses the jutsu, explain what it does, how it reacts to the environment and what small weaknesses it has and boom. There's 2000 words. The solution that EXP brought was that people had to be very careful and wise about which jutsu they acquired. They couldn't just get 10 new jutsu right before a fight to help them win. With EXP, there are sacrifices members have to make; choices that have some unappealing consequence. If you had 15EXP, you couldn't get both a powerful offensive jutsu and a powerful defensive jutsu. You have to focus on either going offense or defense until you can earn enough to get both. But even once you got enough for both, you could instead focus more on offense and improve your strengths instead of going back and covering your weaknesses through defensive jutsu. I hope I'm making sense here, but basically: EXP forces characters to make decisions based on their abilities, instead of having an infinite arsenal with little to no penalty. And mark my words, training is absolutely NOT a deterrent or penalty.

Now you may be wondering "Enzo, what the fuck is your point?" And to summarize, my point is that EXP provides incentive to RP and be a good member, and it also provides a limitation for characters to become overpowered. The moment we allow training as an alternative to EXP, it loses both of these fundamental values. No one needs to really try during an RP topic anymore because funds wouldn't actually matter when the alternative is writing up a few hundred words. Likewise there's no incentive for character building when members can just jack their character up with a million and a half different jutsu to cover every single blind spot just before a big fight.

Now to address the main argument I've seen used to defend this idea: Special Characteristics. More specifically, how they have a clause that allows for both training and EXP spending on them. But as I mentioned earlier, SCs are finite. You can only have a certain number of SCs. Having more free time or being able to write up several thousand words really quickly does not give you an inherent advantage over someone else, because in the end both of you will only have 3 SCs as Genin. It's an even playing field. For the analogy to work, Jutsu would also require a finite limit to them, but not only would that suck, it would be a huge deterrent to creativity. You can only have so many jutsu. Why bother being creative and creating this combination attack that uses 3 different jutsu when instead you can save 2 slots and just get 1 slightly more powerful jutsu? Being forced to spend EXP for jutsu means that you can have the best of both worlds. You can have this complicated as hell 3 jutsu attack, AND you can have this powerful ass jutsu without having to sacrifice one over the other. The only thing stopping you, is YOU. The effort you put into RPing is the only thing keeping you from acquiring those jutsu, not some dumb system the Staff in their infinite wisdom decided would be a cool idea.

Bottom line, having both training and EXP diminishes the value of EXP to the point that it's not even necessary. The only thing anyone would need EXP for is limited techniques, and those can't even be apply for anymore. Not that it matters because anyone applying for them would have so much EXP saved up from training that the EXP limit wouldn't even feel like a motivation or restriction. There's a reason the EXP system is in place, and it's not because the staff are too lazy to read your crummy training topics.

Trey you better give me an A+ on this essay or I will murder you.

COOKIE! B+
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

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A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 9:52 pm

Well, it is not that I don't see your point, because I do, but this is an RP site, people will always RP with one another because it is what the site is about. I won't write a big essay in response because I really don't feel like it is in order because I can summarize it and point to the things i've already stated earlier on.

"Allowing people to train for their jutsu is a natural thing, more so than purchasing them with Exp. People rarely need an incentive to RP as the entire point behind an RP site is, you guessed it, to RP with one another. The Exp system will not become obsolete as it is the requirement for ranking up from C to S rank while people getting the ability to write with people to get Exp and write to get their jutsu will pretty much be awarded either way. You can just write with a bunch of people, write how you're crafting together some neat new jutsu and use the funds you've earned through RPing to buy another bunch of jutsu. The day people need points as an incentive to write as opposed to being on an RP site to just write out their personal stories or shared stories with other people, well, to me, that is the day that we have failed as a site.".

That up there is really all I have to say in defense of my case.
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Enzo
Kumo Nin
Enzo

Age : 25
Posts : 1797

A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 10:03 pm

To be clear I never said it was the only incentive to RPing. Nor did I even claim it was an incentive to RPing (to be really specific). I said it was an incentive for people to RP better, because there is a clear reward for doing so. I did mention the fact that EXP is used for ranking up, but I feel that it serves as only a secondary purpose. Allowing training instead of EXP purchasing does in fact reduce the value of EXP simply because people won't need to spend it. You may as well revert the system back to its old form, which used to be RP points and Mission Points as being fundamentally worthless values that you need to rank up. I quite like the EXP system, and I'm sure a good many other members do as well, but when you do not give anyone a reason to spend their EXP, it's almost the equivalent to just removing it entirely. What good is a system if nobody uses it?

Also your defense doesn't cover my shpeal about the immense power gaps that will emerge between characters of two different ranks. EXP serves as a method for limiting overpowered characters, and allowing training completely defeats this very simple solution to Naruto Gods. I'm not arguing that people need EXP to RP, or they need some incentive to RP, if that's what you got from my response, then I may need to edit it to make sure that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that allowing training fundamentally makes EXP (more specifically, Additional funds) completely obsolete, allows characters to become unrealistically powerful very fast (thus ruining the continuity of the site and thus ruining other people's RPing experience), and that it provides a deterrent to people improving on their work. Never once did I even imply that people would stop RPing.
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Hiruzen
Hiruzen

Age : 28
Posts : 1178

A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 10:23 pm

Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, I just wanted to put down my points of view on the incentive thing. I didn't mean to imply that you claimed people needed it as an incentive to RP. It is just that the writing people do is really up to them. In pretty much all of my threads, i've wanted to do my best to make it a better experience for the person I was RPing with as I would more or less expect in return. Up to the point where I became an S ranked shinobi, I always kept the points in mind when I was writing, but now that I reached the end of the line, the way I RP with people or the amount of effort I put into it has not decreased in the slightest. Hell, I personally believe that no longer writing because I could earn points and rank up faster actually made the content of my posts slightly better.

Now, as for the part where people would become a lot stronger than other people in very little time, that has pretty much always been a possibility here on US. Now that people are allowed to be in five threads and had the Evaluation system turned to factory settings, people can gather up a lot of Exp and get themselves a bunch of jutsu already. Strong jutsu always play a big part in combat RPing, but the power of the jutsu only does so much in the hands of a person who is not fit to wield them properly. I am one of the people that believes that a skilled combat writer with B ranked jutsu can beat a less skilled combat writer with A and S ranked jutsu.

In terms of strength of character, the way one sets up his SCs is way more important than how many strong jutsu a person has as a person with S ranked speed can outrun most of the strong jutsu before they get hit, a person with S ranked endurance can take quite a beaten while a well outfitted character will rarely take any damage at all. When you have a skilled combat writer with the right SC's, the jutsu they get really are nothing more than the writing on the enemy's gravestone. When you look at the stronger combat roleplayers on the site, you'll see that the actual strength of the jutsu does not matter nearly as much as how well they can use what they have in terms of Characteristics.

Now that i've started rambling, I think I should get to the end of the rant by saying that the strength of one's jutsu only does so much in a fight as it is mostly the SCs and the writing skill that make people strong. You can give the worst writer 10 S ranked jutsu and give the best a few A ranked jutsu and he will still win because he is simply better at what he does. The only thing this will really do is make everyone's arsenal more diverse in a smaller time frame. Sure, it will make people stronger, but it will do so for every single person on the site.
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Mugen Kousen
Mugen Kousen

Age : 29
Posts : 718

A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptySun 01 Mar 2015, 10:45 pm

You guys going back and forth makes me giggle.

While I still advocate a training system from the bottom of my heart, I'd like to re-iterate something I said at the start of this whole thing. I love the idea, I think it's great. But right now it isn't right for the site. Not until staff can bolster their numbers and achieve a well oiled performance. The addition of myself and Ruka to the team would not be enough to handle a training system in my opinion.

That being said, I'm still participating in this discussion because I believe the idea has merit. There are a couple regulations we can put into place around the training system to alleviate pretty much all of Enzo's concerns. It just takes an open minded approach with a willingness to find a middle ground. Correct me if I'm wrong Enzo, but your primary concerns seem to be the following:


  • Countless Jutsu being trained in a short period of time
  • Exp(AF) losing its relevance
  • Skewing the balance of progression in favor of those who have time to write lots and know how to game the system.


These are all really easy to address with a single addition to the training system. Simply limit the number of jutsu you are allowed to train in any given time period. For example, five jutsu a month.

An additional stipulation that threads in which you train jutsu can't be submitted for exp evals would tie up the loose end of buying jutsu from the effort of a jutsu training thread.

Does this not eliminate your worries? Or have I misunderstood the crux of your argument?
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NuclearTreerat
NuclearTreerat

Age : 44
Posts : 1036

A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine EmptyMon 02 Mar 2015, 4:20 am

How is that any different from what happens now Enzo? People with time to make the maximum number of topics in a given timespan already have the advantage in how many jutsu they can posses. Especially with the new "evaluation" system setup to encourage quanity over quality when it comes to threads. As long as they're submitting the maximum number per week they'll easily accumulate more points over the course of a month than the "casual" who maybe finishes 2 or 3 topics in that same monthly period.

One could even make the case that training would be benifical to the site at this point in time. Since without the incentive to gather up a ton of points to purchase things people would care less about maximizing their weekly AF intake and instead focus on (oh the horror) actually RPing with other players. Particularly in those longer-running threads that tend to go 3 or 4 weeks (or longer) to wrap up and are in no way "efficient" when it comes to stocking up on xp. Not to mention that those who don't have the time to farm points could still be able to acquire an appreciable number of jutsu instead of lagging behind those whose focus is exploiting the current system to maximize gain.

Lastly I don't recall any of the problems you mention happening when the only way one could acquire jutsu was via training. Probably because the amount of writing & time involved in trying to do what he's suggesting tendes to quicky kill off that urge. To go from your own example, a genin trying to get 4 C-rank techniques - which are already limited in effect per the site rules (when they're actually followed) - would have needed 1,000 words at the minimum and frequently a bit more to flesh things out.  That's not a small amount of writing and trying to do that to get a truly massive number of techniques in a short time would in all likelihood lead to someone burning out. So the whole "over powered low-rank character" situation really doesn't seem to hold up as far as I can tell for three major reasons. One, the situation can already occur under the system you advocate. Two, the effort to becoming "over powered" under the system Hiruzen advocates would probably end up taking more work than under the current system. Lastly, people trying it anyway are more likely to burn out from writing those training posts before or shortly after acquiring their shiny new toys and dissappear. Really the only advantage I see to training over spending points is that you have a fixed goal to aim for instead of having to gamble on the staffs whims staying constistent while one is active here.

Oh and before someone accuses me of wanting to training to "catch up". I don't have a horse in this race. My character has enough jutsu at this point that I really don't see the need for more that won't come as I do topics anyway. So I wouldn't gain an personal advantage by having training put in. In fact the only "perk" I see the training aspect having for my character is the ability to at some point do training threads with genin where said genin actually get something relevant from said thread for their character. And if someone doesn't like that concept, well I have two things to say. First, you had better be advocating removing the entire third-spec system just as vigorously because that is exactly what that system is. Second, isn't the whole point of RPing in a COMMUNITY that characters interact with eachother in ways that create a persistent world?
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A silly idea of mine Vide
PostSubject: Re: A silly idea of mine A silly idea of mine Empty

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