New Ranking System

Age : 34 Posts : 718

I realize you stated that you wont be posting here again BityGal, but I'll be addressing some of the stuff you've written in case anyone else decides to jump into this thread who hasn't been around since the beginning and doesn't want to fully ready every single post in between. I'll also pm you about some stuff you brought up that isn't really related to this topic at all, so I hope you'll be around long enough to see that.

First of all, I'm not in charge at all. I helped come up with the idea for this update so I'm knowledgeable on why it is the way it is. But I'm not staff anymore. I'm just trying to help guide this thread towards productive discussion.

Now then, time to get into the nitty gritty of the concerns brought up here:

RPing the way you want to.(We hate combat threads!) - The big issue being brought up surrounding this is that some people have no interest in fighting or sparring. That's fine, you don't need to fight a single character in order to rank up in this system. What everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that not all missions require combat. There is no mission system dictating that you need to fight X number of NPCs or anything of that nature. You can absolutely make an A-rank mission where your character is sent on a strictly diplomatic mission to meet a high standing VIP from another country/village. Or perhaps an S-rank mission where an environment that produces resources that are absolutely vital to your village's survival is threatened by some kind of problem that can be resolved through social intrigue rather than the power of your fists. I think there might be a rule somewhere that S-rank missions need to have risk of death, but I can't find it. However, those risks don't need to be combat related. All it takes is a little creativity and you can turn missions into fun and interesting "socials" as opposed to unwanted battle situations.

In addition to this, Ms. Money and I were discussing ways to incorporate social rp's into the rank up system as well. Unfortunately, the conversation got buried as other people brought up concerns. But I really hope more people comment on the idea because I think it's a great one.

None of the veteran rpers on the board meet these requirements - This is a misleading statement that doesn't take the context of the situation into consideration. To begin with, before this system was proposed, the general consensus was that it was too easy to rank up due to some eval system updates. When people want a rank up difficulty increase, it only makes sense that the new standards might exceed what old members have already accomplished. But that isn't a particularly strong point. These new standards clearly set the bar higher than people wanted and those complaints have been heard. I don't know how low staff will set the next iteration of this systems rank up requirements, but I'm sure it will happen after all this backlash.

However, there is also something VERY important to keep in mind. The reason why older members wouldn't meet these new standards is due to the high number of missions demanded from players. The old system didn't really demand or strongly incentivise that a player do missions quite as much. There WAS certainly a need to do them with the Mission Points, but the other half of ranking up was exp which could be earned from socials and missions alike. So it isn't that surprising to find even veteran members with more missions than they needed under their belts to come up short in a new system where missions are 100% of ranking up rather than only half the job. Granted, like I mentioned before, there is an idea to make socials much more involved in ranking up. We just need more people commenting on that and other potential solutions instead of echoing the same complaints that we are already trying to find solutions for.

A Daunting Task - Ranking up to S-rank SHOULD be a daunting task. Even if the bar is lowered to something people find more reasonable, it should still be a big deal to get to S-rank. That's just my opinion. I don't want myself or anyone else hitting max rank without at LEAST a years worth of effort put in. No, that doesn't mean posting daily. But that is under the expectation of posting three times a week which is not a whole lot of someone's time. That's perhaps an hour and thirty minutes per week assuming half an hour going into each post. If a full time student holding down a job can pull that off, anyone can. All it takes is some simple time management skills. If you can't post that often or you're like me and just don't feel inspired to post that often, it may take you a while longer. Perhaps even two or three years. But because of how the ranking system is set up, requirements for the lower ranks are pretty manageable. So it might take me years to hit max rank, but it won't be like I'm seeing no progression at all for two years.

Other People Aren't Active Enough - This isn't really a problem with the ranking system but I think it deserves addressing. I've been rping on forums for about a decade(10 years) now and I've seen all kinds of activity situations from sites barely held together by the efforts of one or two people to a flourishing ocean of constant daily posters. Things like ranking systems or site aesthetics can influence activity, but they don't cultivate or drive it. This rank up system is being refined, hopefully the final incarnation of it will be a lot more social friendly and include educating information about how missions can be social as well so we don't alienate new members right off the bat. But from there activity is one of those "if you build it, they will come" type things. Every good site starts with a handful of stubborn RPers who are dedicated to making it work and being active even if there aren't a ton of people around. Without those people activity will never grow. If you aren't willing to be one of those people then so be it, but please remember that means you are part of the activity "problem" to a certain degree.

Part of the solution is to make NO MISSIONS required for rank ups - This is an extreme response. I won't go into how missions can be non-combat centric much more to avoid beating a dead horse, but I do feel it's important to address why missions are important IC. Yes, it is "assumed" that shinobi are doing missions off screen all the time. It would be unreasonable to expect that the only missions your character ever does are the ones you write. However, that does not mean it would a "good" thing to let people rank up without ever writing out missions. No matter how social of an rper you would like to be, in the naruto verse it is inevitable that some kind of danger is going to threaten each village. Sometimes these threats are events and sometimes even player driven and carry the risk of character death. It's important that everyone at Jonin, Sennin, and Kage levels have at least some experience dealing with the kind of problems and obstacles that come up during a mission and if they got to where they are without doing a single mission then it's hard to have confidence that they will respond to the threat effectively.

Besides, if all you care about is socials, why do you care about ranking up to the higher ranks anyways? Unless the forum a strictly a non-combat forum, Jonin, Sennin, and Kage have an unspoken responsibility to everyone else in the village to be somewhat capable in a dangerous situation. Missions are not going to turn these people into master combatants or tacticians(in the case of social missions) however, they will show everyone that they at least know how to tackle a problem and find a solution. Call it "training" if you want, but I don't see it at that so much as a sign to other rpers that they are worthy of the power their ranks entitle. It's hard to express such worthiness when your threads have been nothing but emotional rollercoasters or goofy fun times.

Once again, this is only my opinion. But I believe removing missions from the rank up process altogether is a huge mistake and I also feel like it betrays the nature of a "Naruto" rp site.

Anyways, I'll start working on that pm to send now.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

I mostly agree with the above. I know that it may seem unfair because I already have two S ranked shinobi, though I am also one of the few people that has been RPing almost non-stop, among which have been a lot of combat threads, social threads, solo threads, missions and whatever else might fit in between in a quest to work out a great personal plot for myself that I hope to one day tie in with the rest of the site.

One of the good things about US is that you have a good enough amount of freedom to do as you please. If you do not find that you can do such a thing in a village, you can go for the Nukenin option, which is what I have done myself. Plenty of people have managed to become Nukenin over the years, though some have been stopped in their tracks because I do feel like US holds on to a certain amount of realism in terms of following Naruto systems. We do not just let people walk out of a village and most people would try to stop them from trying, which is exactly how it is in the Naruto world.

Another thing I personally enjoyed, in spite of the system becoming severely weakened before it became what it is now is that we needed a good amount of missions in order to rank up. When you look at someone like Kisame Hoshigaki, he did 3 D-rank, 68 C-rank, 154 B-rank, 78 A-rank and 29 S-ranked missions. While I have no idea how many missions I have done on characters like Hiruzen or Yoroi, I know that I stopped doing missions the moment I hit the maximum requirement and never did one again. In my point of view, getting to S rank should be a rather hard thing to do, and while people might not like it, there is the option of making custom missions you can do when the generic ones get boring.

Hell, as Hokage, I even made things easier for people by making a list of customized missions to add to the list of Konoha Generic Missions in hopes that it would make things easier for people. It sucks when you need to do a lot of pre-made missions, though I tried my best to help people out with things as much as I possibly could. Missions are a necessary evil in my opinion, and they are simply a requirement for ranking up. But as is the case with socials, you do not need to do them on your own, meaning you can make them as fun or as boring as you want.

That is just my input on the matter.

Age : 25 Posts : 175

To comment on Hiru's point about custom missions. Any thought on having people apply for an assignment instead? Where you(kage) give out a custom mission, and it's all RP'd out in your office or by NPCs downstairs etc. And to keep a social aspect for it, you could mod an important NPC or such and in return you could receive xp for doing so. It could be like a mini-event just for those assigned. Sometimes it's fun to put your character's fate in someone else's hands.

Solo missions are pretty boring

Edit: to clarify, I ment the above being an addition to the current system, not a sort of replacement.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Speaking from a Hokage perspective, I would not be against making more missions and adding them to the Konoha list. These missions would be taken directly from the Hokage's office after a short conversation with the Hokage due to the nature of the mission and it most likely requiring a good amount of secrecy. That said, such missions would be classified as A+ Rank.

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Can I ask what was wrong with the original ranking system that worked for years before this one was made?

I probably got too lazy to read this whole thread, so excuse me if I missed it or whatever.

But it wasn't horrible.
Wasn't even that bad.

This new one is wretched and seems like it was just thrown together to piss people off. xD

Age : 34 Posts : 718

The new eval system made the old system broken in the sense that it was far too easy to rank up. Almost everyone agreed in another thread that it was too easy and needed to be changed. People just aren't happy with the way staff decided to address that problem.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Can we all just accept we've been fucked over and no amount of whining is gonna change that? *rolls over* There. Let's get on with this unwanted, worse than shitty way forward.

Age : 31 Posts : 1637

The system's been updated.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

If I was okay with the original incarnation, I'm certainly okay with this one. But the fact that I still like something lots of people hated doesn't hold much weight.

So come on people, everyone who was upset with the rank up updates, how do you feel about this rendition? How do you feel it could be better? Do you still not like the approach at all?

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Not Helping wrote:: Can we all just accept we've been fucked over and no amount of whining is gonna change that? *rolls over* There. Let's get on with this unwanted, worse than shitty way forward.

People need to complain less. I like that the people who always pointed out that I was bitching are now being the worst possible kind of people, the "Go back to how it was cuz I like being stuck in the past". Efforts have been made to make the system better than what it was, because the old one was rather crappy and had no real signs of progression. You could basically rank up all the way to S rank by spamming D ranked missions. So really, it is an improvement that makes a lot more sense from an IC and an OOC perspective.

To the people who still want to complain, How does it feel to be the old me? Must feel great having that pointed out to you, because I sure enjoy pointing it out Wink

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Fuck you Vergil. You're a whiny bitch that cries about minuscule things that affect only you. When you raise a bigger issue, it is under the veil, that you're helping others out; but everyone knows you're a selfish cunt anyway.

This is a change that completely overhauls a system that has been around since pretty much the start of the site. It redefines how people HAVE to roleplay on this site; it's a complete departure from the site's social-writing focus. It's bigger than you not getting your overpowered shitty character, that is, every single one of them.

Age : 31 Posts : 1490

And Chris has been banned for the time being, all responses to this thread had best remain civil, I'm far too old to babysit toddlers with toxic personalities.

Age : 37 Posts : 2201

Hiruzen wrote:: People need to complain less. I like that the people who always pointed out that I was bitching are now being the worst possible kind of people, the "Go back to how it was cuz I like being stuck in the past". Efforts have been made to make the system better than what it was, because the old one was rather crappy and had no real signs of progression. You could basically rank up all the way to S rank by spamming D ranked missions. So really, it is an improvement that makes a lot more sense from an IC and an OOC perspective.

To the people who still want to complain, How does it feel to be the old me? Must feel great having that pointed out to you, because I sure enjoy pointing it out Wink

I was actually going to refrain from getting on here for the time being, due to a rather Hell-ish situation IRL, but someone pointed me again in the direction of this thread and now I feel like a bull that has had a red flag waved in front of its eyes.

Vergil, really?

I -never- thought I'd agree with Chris on anything. If I didn't expect to be banned from quoting him, I would do it.

Just because there is finally ONE thread on the entire site that you don't complain on, doesn't mean you can act all high and mighty towards those that actually do have a problem with this. I would actually expect a bit more from a person that was a staff in training. Goading members in such a way is not something I'd ever want to see from a staff under my control, just saying. I feel a bit pissed off as well that there was no mentioning of the obvious goading - admins please don't just focus the anger in one direction when publicly scolding.

And yes, you should know first hand of the spamming of D-rank missions to get to S-rank, since you are probably the only one doing so, Vergil.

People ARE allowed to complain and discuss this out - since they are a part of this site as well.

Now can a real discussion keep going, or will there be more goading from staff?

Age : 30 Posts : 1012

Since I've been gone for months, like 4 or so. I went through my parents getting divorced, moving to an apartment, and all that.

Not really the point.

The old ranking system was alright. I never minded the EXP/MP thing, I loved it! I didn't care for how evals went, telling people they suck, or were bias (Which happened in the past, let's be honest.) The new eval system, I've barely read up on since I didn't really understand the switch from the old one in the first place. It was doing fine for years. Did it strip people of rank? I don't honestly know? ANYWAY.

If members are not liking it, and it takes a thread of flaming to get attention, that's not really how holding a site works. Writing is supposed to be a hobby, not a job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the work required to S rank should have some effort, but not to the point where it makes writing less fun than it should be.

Why not a hybrid system taking pro concepts from BOTH, and leave the cons out of it. A new site could work, but the activity here isn't the greatest.

Staff needs work.
Systems need work.

I honestly wouldn't know where to go from here; Imo, I adored the last ranking system. Missions were drag with the caps but it was good.

For the death thing, it was a rule.
Like 30% of Exp/MP went to the next character, having multiple characters myself it was nifty to have a boost of rank rather than just get AF to get more jutsu.

I don't even know if my post was helpful but eh.

Age : 34 Posts : 718

Le sigh...

Mugen Kousen wrote:: If I was okay with the original incarnation, I'm certainly okay with this one. But the fact that I still like something lots of people hated doesn't hold much weight.

So come on people, everyone who was upset with the rank up updates, how do you feel about this rendition? How do you feel it could be better? Do you still not like the approach at all?

^ That. Please.

This thread doesn't need people being dickish(Hiruzen), emotional outbursts(Chris), or bannings(Trey). All three of you could probably have handled your posts in a much more mature manner.

Heida, I love you but focus on your RL problems and come back to us when you're ready <3 I hate to say it, but you aren't helping the situation by calling Hiruzen out in an aggressive manner. It will only stoke the flames, no matter how much he might deserve an ass chewing.

@Cross, I'm not sure if your post will end up helping. But thanks for posting your feedback man. I think you've got the wrong idea though. It didn't take a thread full of flaming for this to get attention. Staff was on top of this thread within 24 hours of it being posted up and they've been trying to work with people to improve the new system based on feedback ever since.

@Everyone
With that notion in mind, I hope we can proceed with this thread in a productive manner.

Do you still not like the system after updates? Please share why and what you think the major flaws with it are? Why do you dislike it? How could it be changed to be better? Do you still just want things back to the way they were?

I hope we can all share our opinions and temper them with a healthy dose of mutual respect and good manners even if there are those among us who fail to do so.

Posts : 757

mugen is like the most level headed guy on earth

Age : 32 Posts : 1495

My major complaints have been adressed, I can technically tolerate this system. Still, it leaves some things to personal evaluation, what specifically counts as "Significant character growth" and what doesn't? Is it up to the Eval mod to decide? Maybe it's better for the members themselves to point out which objectives they intend to tackle with this topic?

Other than these minor ponderings it'd be like that smelly roomie with compulsive thieving disorder and pathetic standards of personal hygiene: you want to kill them for taking your old roomie's spot but you can live with them as long as the window is open... The Ed of "What's the point" is still in power though, I still do not understand why ranking needed to be changed but... Yay... It's changed... I guess...

Posts : 288

Update is better. I know this is one of those things that I just won't like. But as chris and cross said:

Chris wrote:: This is a change that completely overhauls a system that has been around since pretty much the start of the site. It redefines how people HAVE to roleplay on this site; it's a complete departure from the site's social-writing focus.

I like combat and usually like to write like this is some sort of weird tabletop game but there are times where I want to shift my focus to something social. Options on how to rank up. Socially and Mission.

Cross wrote:: If members are not liking it, and it takes a thread of flaming to get attention, that's not really how holding a site works. Writing is supposed to be a hobby, not a job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the work required to S rank should have some effort, but not to the point where it makes writing less fun than it should be.

Why not a hybrid system taking pro concepts from BOTH, and leave the cons out of it. A new site could work, but the activity here isn't the greatest.

Staff needs work.
Systems need work.

I have two full time jobs and full time school. This is my hobby. Making it so that I have to write full time to rank up ON TOP of writing socials and personal threads does not thrill me. A hybrid Social/Mission system seems more acceptable.

I don't feel right about the whole new site idea but a UltimateShinobi version 2348 (whatever version it is) might be in order if a great deal of people have multiple problems with many systems.

The current system would work better if the battle/mission system itself was stronger and left less room for interpretation. Though I advocate for a more clear and defined battle system, it would alienate social writers. I am open for suggestions, I just find it hard to give clear ones with everything else being the way it is set up currently.

(-_- I don't even know what I am saying anymore)

Age : 34 Posts : 718

Ruka wrote:: My major complaints have been adressed, I can technically tolerate this system. Still, it leaves some things to personal evaluation, what specifically counts as "Significant character growth" and what doesn't? Is it up to the Eval mod to decide? Maybe it's better for the members themselves to point out which objectives they intend to tackle with this topic?

Other than these minor ponderings it'd be like that smelly roomie with compulsive thieving disorder and pathetic standards of personal hygiene: you want to kill them for taking your old roomie's spot but you can live with them as long as the window is open... The Ed of "What's the point" is still in power though, I still do not understand why ranking needed to be changed but... Yay... It's changed... I guess...

I can't speak for current staff. But I for one would like to strive for something a bit better than a tolerable smelly roommate. I agree that the significant character growth thing is kind of vague and needs clarification.

With the help of Heida, I wrestled to the idea having a pool of character goals. To prevent this pool from being stagnant and limiting, we could have it open to submissions for new goals from the member base.

Some examples of these goals could be:

Meet a sensei and convince them to train you.
Form/deepen a bond with a teammate.
Discover a flaw/weakness within yourself and face it.
Help someone else face a flaw/weakness they bear.
Teach a kohai or a colleague something about the world or themselves.
Reconcile with a formerly betrayed comrade.
Betray a comrade and face how that has affected you.
Make a horrible mistake leading to a small disaster and find a way to fix it.

Heida seemed to be more in favor of looser standards without a set list of things people have to choose from. But the discussion got buried under complaining or was so unfavorable that no one wanted to comment on it. So I'd like to hear your thoughts about this kind of approach.

ALSO, would you feel better about the system if the spar/battle requirements were removed or changed and added to the social requirements(instead of 3 spars and 3 social growth, just go for 6 socials) for each rank up?

--------------------------------

@Locket,

I'd like your thoughts on the above as well. Even the old system didn't allow you to completely ignore doing missions, so perhaps this stronger focus on the social side of things will improve your opinion on the system. I'd like to know what you think :3

As for having to write full time, I'd like to stress that you would only need to write like that if you were trying to become a kage in just a few months. You could rp casually and still rank up in this system. If you just rp for the sake of having fun, eventually the ranks will come on their own so long as you aren't totally ignoring missions.

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Chris wrote:: Fuck you Vergil. You're a whiny bitch that cries about minuscule things that affect only you. When you raise a bigger issue, it is under the veil, that you're helping others out; but everyone knows you're a selfish cunt anyway.

This is a change that completely overhauls a system that has been around since pretty much the start of the site. It redefines how people HAVE to roleplay on this site; it's a complete departure from the site's social-writing focus. It's bigger than you not getting your overpowered shitty character, that is, every single one of them.

^Has been dealt with and will not be dignified with a response. So, I will instead reply to the other people of the site.

My intention was not to shove your faces into the dirt at all, or I would not have made an attempt at helping out with the ranking system, nor would I have done my best to make sure you all get your stuff approved in a timely fashion. But all that aside, whether you like it or not, this is a system that makes a lot more sense when you go about it in a logical fashion. People could have just spammed a bunch of D ranked missions and dashed their way to S rank. It is the exact manner in which I ranked up my first character, and that is not something I am remotely fond off.

Like I said, the whole need to do missions is a necessary evil that most people simply do not enjoy a whole lot. If you look at it from a more logical point of view, the fact that you need to show signs of growth, need to do a couple of missions of equal rank in order to show your Kage that you are fit to fill out a higher role within the village (From an IC perspective) is really what ranking up should be about. Now, I also get that people feel like Social Threads do not award people with anything in terms of ranking up, but my question to you is, why should it?

I mean, currently, you can use social threads to show signs of growth, which count towards you ranking up as a person. But, aside from that, this is an RP site, Social RP is the lifeblood of a site in terms of activity. The moment social roleplaying is no longer done because people do not feel like they are being rewarded enough for it, you might want to consider the kind of thing you are into.

Social Roleplaying, to me, has always been entirely about my own enjoyment. Missions were a necessary evil that I tried to tackle when my socials were being slow or when I felt like doing one or two. The moment socials are performed solely because people want points and do not care about writing in and of itself or doing it to "socialize" with other characters, I feel like we failed as Roleplayers.

I hope this post is more fitting than my former one, and again, my apologies to the people who feel like I stepped on their toes with my own personal opinion. Other than that, I would like to really point out the above post made by Mugen, it pretty much describes the current idea rather well.

Age : 32 Posts : 1495

Guys, just keep this system as it is, don't make the smelly roommate a repeated sex offender by imposing limitations on character's freedom to plot and forcing them to "betray someone" or "find a friend" to rank up.

Posts : 288

@Mugen,

I think those personal goals should be an option but I think those specific examples might be too limiting as Ruka said. Being able to mix and match missions and socials would be preferable. When I do missions I really use the mission as background for some other form of character growth. I will try to come up with some example that could be used when I get back from work and sleep. . . 32 hours awake. Just kind of hard to come up with a social solution while being tired and without overloading mods with evals again.

and Hiruzen, If I recall strength does not equate to rank. Naruto and Sasuke never got past Genin. (most likely happened during jump from Kaguya to Bolt time skip though) but they were extremely strong. If they eventually did missions to rank up then it was done off screen and was considered "unimportant" to their overall growth. I assume that some missions are done "offscreen" with our characters as well.

Age : 29 Posts : 1585

Hiruzen wrote:: People need to complain less.

I have to admit, Siedy, you gave me a humongous laugh with this sentence. I haven't read something so funny in weeks. I sincerely thank you for this piece of superficial responsibility. Because, you know, I've been around when you made your various arguments, remarks, fights, complaints, even productive conversations. But there are people on this forum, like you and me, who have been whining and complaining about things, calling out staff members straight ahead and various other incidents.

However, I have at least been a whinny bitch and an attention whore throughout my whole career on this forum, as a member, as a staff member, switch a couple more times. But you are now playing the peacemaker card. At least remain true to where you stand, don't support the decisions, changes or anything your team (which you've been opposed to no matter what) makes just because you finally made it in staff after years of asking and applying. I mean, at least try to be less pretentious and work on things to improve the situation. And no, I won't read everything on this thread, cause I don't want to become sick.

As for Chris getting banned, it's even more... not what needs to be done? I don't know. His ban timer seems a bit too much for getting emotional over something like this and shouting out bad words. But I'm in no position to question that.

So yeah, I just wanted to say these things in the midst of the nirvana my medication has caused.

*Rolls back to inactivity*

Age : 32 Posts : 1495

Keos wrote:

Hiruzen wrote:: People need to complain less.

I have to admit, Siedy, you gave me a humongous laugh with this sentence. I haven't read something so funny in weeks. I sincerely thank you for this piece of superficial responsibility. Because, you know, I've been around when you made your various arguments, remarks, fights, complaints, even productive conversations. But there are people on this forum, like you and me, who have been whining and complaining about things, calling out staff members straight ahead and various other incidents.

However, I have at least been a whinny bitch and an attention whore throughout my whole career on this forum, as a member, as a staff member, switch a couple more times. But you are now playing the peacemaker card. At least remain true to where you stand, don't support the decisions, changes or anything your team (which you've been opposed to no matter what) makes just because you finally made it in staff after years of asking and applying. I mean, at least try to be less pretentious and work on things to improve the situation. And no, I won't read everything on this thread, cause I don't want to become sick.

As for Chris getting banned, it's even more... not what needs to be done? I don't know. His ban timer seems a bit too much for getting emotional over something like this and shouting out bad words. But I'm in no position to question that.

So yeah, I just wanted to say these things in the midst of the nirvana my medication has caused.

*Rolls back to inactivity*

From what I've gathered the point of this post is just hate spitting on a specific person instead of discussing the ranking system. I'll have to ask you people to actually discuss the ranking system... In this ranking system FA topic. People are allowed to change, Vergil may have been the first person to oppose the Staff team and tend to jump out quite a bit but he has a right to stop doing that and change, he also has a right to not be personally attacked when doing so. Also, this is not even remotely the point of this topic, a topic which is already 4 pages long so:

Please stick to the topic people.

P.S. Some unrelated with the topic personal bickering was deleted. Feel free to freak out just don't tell me I haven't warned you two

Age : 32 Posts : 1178

Hiruzen wrote:: I do however think that it would be good if people would actually try this system out before putting in more complaints. At this point in time, there is no one that can honestly say that this system is broken or unfair. I say we keep this thread quiet for a month or so and actually give it a shot. If by that time things are still not to your liking, I guess we can just continue discussing it at that point.

So i'd say, "Go RP and give this bitch a spin".

I stand by what I said, I think this will be better for everyone and will make things more productive in the future. You can't blame a system for being faulty if you have not given it a spin and don't have any first-hand experience from it. When you give it a try, you can figure out problems with the system and point those out. I think that should be our priority right now, not personal attacks or further derailment.