Confusion

Posts : 363

So its been made very clear to me since I came here that ninjas shouldn't be able to add chakra into inanimate objects or apply them in anyway. This means no chakra surrounded swords, no weapons manipulated by chakra. Examples? No techniques that let you utilize chakra or elements to surround a weapon until either B-rank jutsu/weapon or until you get the SC. No taking a chain and being able to move it around with chakra, directing as you wish. And no throwing projectiles and then having them say lock onto my enemies.

I'd be alright with that

If the site did it that way. But I look at the encyclopedia and I see numerous examples of techniques from D to C that let you do example what moderators will say no to. Now, I have brought this up and discussed it some with moderators, but I feel inclined to put out a list of what seem like questionable techniques in the Encylopedia that seem like they don't follow the rules to point out a contradiction of policy versus actuality.

Quote :: Name: Burēdo no Ha - Blades of Leaves
Rank: D
Type: Ninjutsu
Range: Close (0 - 5m)
Element: -
Description: Burēdo no Ha is a ninjutsu technique utilizing leaves. By using the leaves that are scattered across the ground in the surrounding five metre radius, the user is able to lift ten leaves by using chakra alone and launch them at their opponent. If contact is made, the intended target will suffer from small scratches that the leaves have to offer. The technique will only be able to lift ten leaves at a time, it's also not strong enough to kill, only to scratch the flesh to the point of blood being drawn.
Chakra Cost: 4

This ninjutsu is an odder example, as leaves are a little unclear. They aren't inherently weapons, and they aren't organic. But it says plainly that the user is able to lift the leaves without touching them, using chakra alone, akin to telekinesis. However, if I were to apply chakra to Shurikens and do the same, wouldn't I get unapproved? If not, why? And if so, what makes this different? Leaves or organic, yes. But so is wood. Could I shoot arrows? Am I allowed to make telekinetic jutsu that throws logs? And how come I can do this without touching them?

Quote :: Name: Raitoningu no Kengen - Lightning Manifestation
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0 - 5m), Med (5 - 10m), Far (10m+)
Element: Raiton
Description: Raitoningu no Kengen is a weaponry technique utilizing the lightning element. Using their lightning affinity, the Kumogakure shinobi is able to enhance any weapon they possess and coat it with lightning chakra to give it a more powerful hit. The lightning will be able to numb the area where the weapon strikes and also cause minor burns. Any weapon can be enhanced by this attack, Kunai, Shuriken, Blades or even Arrows. The technique can only be used on weapons though, once the weapon has struck something the lightning will fade away.
Chakra Cost: 6

This technique is a blatant example of what we're told not to do. Take any weapon, cover it with electricity. It doesn't say it requires special weapons nor the SC. Now, perhaps I'm wrong in bringing this technique up. Perhaps, you say, its supposed to be only useable with the SC. If so, I'd like that noted in the technique.

Quote :: Name: Fuusajin - Dust Wind
Rank: D
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m)
Element: N/A
Description: Using a fan, the user will blow a strong current which will cover the surrounding area in dust. This dust will serve to loosen the footing for any opponent who walks nearby.
Chakra Cost: 3

Name: Kamaitachi - Cutting Whirlwind
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m)
Element: Fuuton (Wind)
Description: This technique requires a fan or wind-inducing weapon. By freely manipulating the gale brought forth by her or his fan/wind-inducing weapon, the many air currents collide and create vacuums pockets. The person enveloped by this gale is assaulted by countless invisible blades, carving up their body. Also, the strong wind power will blow away all incoming projectile weapons.
Chakra Cost: 7

Name: Dai Kamaitachi - Great Cutting Whirlwind
Rank: B
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m), Far (10+)
Element: Fuuton (Wind)
Description: Named after a mythical creature, the user uses her/his fan to blow a concussive wind that is imbued with her/his chakra. This technique is a bigger version of the normal Kamaitachi no Jutsu, having the ability to cause a great amount of cutting damage to the nearby area.
Chakra Cost: 12

Name: Tatsu no Ooshigoto - Dragon's Big Job
Rank: B
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0m - 5m), Mid (5m - 10m), Far (10+)
Element: Fuuton (Wind)
Description: The user swings her or his fan to the sky, causing a giant tornado to descend upon a target. This technique can be set up as a feint as it has a delayed activation. The technique alters weather conditions temporarily and attacks from the sky rather than from the person. The storm clouds that create the attack dissipate immediately after the tornado begins while the tornado continues in a highly concentrated state.
Chakra Cost: 14

Firstly, Enzo thought these were Ninjutsu, not weaponry techniques, when I mentioned them to him. Not a big deal, but if they need a type change, I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. But if not, it leads to a questionable hole that people could get away with. That is, Fuusajin and Kamaitachi both only require A Fan. Not a Giant Fan, which is B-rank, but a Fan. Thus, a ninja could make say a Medium Fan at C-rank and try to get away with using the D-rank and C-rank technique. Also, could we get more weaponry techniques that don't require a B-rank weapon to use if possible, if these are removed? I'd like to have techniuqes useable as a Genin in the Encylopedia ^.^

Quote :: Name: Gyorai Shin - Torpedo Needle
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry
Range: Close (0m - 5m)
Element: N/A
Description: Removing nails from his or her pocket, the user will throw them into the air and then plant them tip first into the earth. Using his or her chakra the nails will travel into the ground. Then at his or her discretion, he or she can fire the nails from the ground through the feet of his or her target to nail them in place. He or she can then fire the remaining nails from the ground to cut his target to pieces.
Chakra Cost: 7

This one is the most blatant example of no I've seen. You're able to put chakra into nails. Metal. Stabby. Painful nails. And note they don't indicate what size nails either. So you could have big, Bang Shishigami C-rank stabby nails, and be able to use your Chakra, not earth-based you'll note, to manipulate underground without being able to see where they are, without direct contact, manipulate the nails.And they can TRAVEL. Move across the battlefield. And then, they can be launched. Need I point out how much these can be manipulated by chakra alone, compared to, say, moving a chakra you're holding with chakra?

Quote :: Name: Senbon Shower
Rank: C
Type: Weaponry
Range: Mid (5m - 10m)
Element: N/A
Description: After throwing a special umbrella that has been equipped with springs into the air, it will release a hailing "shower" of senbon. It cannot be dodged by moving away since the needles cover a wide area in all directions, controlled by chakra. While numerous, the senbon can be easily deflected or blocked and are only capable of inflicting minor cuts and puncture wounds.
Chakra Cost: 8

Now, I'm really stabbing myself in the foot right now, since this is one of the techniques I have in my list right now that I'd like to be able to use. So, I'll assure you guys, my pointing this out is hurting me some. But just read the jutsu. Umbrellas thrown in the air, manipulated by chakra, and the needles, controlled by chakra. And from what we've seen from the Canon technique, able to be aimed directly upon a single opponent. i.e Gaara.

What I'm getting at is, could you guys either change these jutsus, remove them, or modify your policy for us, or clarify why these techniques are okay? I know it might take a few months to get around to with all the other stuff you're dealing with, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention. Cus its kinda frustrating to get denied a technique that uses seemingly the same principle as one in the encyclopedia.

I'm your host Shiro.

Juuuust doing God's Work~ (That's you Adam!)

Age : 31 Posts : 471

Hey Shiro, first of all, thank you for investing the time in not only pointing issues out to us, but doing so in great detail and outlining specific manifestations of the problem. I also have to commend your attitude, as while I'm sure it's no secret that you're not afraid to poke at things you disagree with (your app is quite a read Razz

), I notice that you do so in a casual and civil manner, so thank you immensely for that; it's feedback of this variety that drives anything forward.

That all being said, we've become increasingly aware of issues with numerous encyclopedia jutsu of late, where by not being recognize as open techniques, these techniques too have recieved staff critique, until their pre-approved status is brought to light. As this is obviously an issue, they've made their way into staff discussions, and while not being of the highest priority at the moment, they will go under review.

At this stage, I'd say that jutsu of any rank that describes chakra channeling shouldn't be usable without the appropriate B rank skill, which would just mean that once Chuunin, people have simpler, less costly chakra channeling techniques. I dare say that may have been the original intention, but due to rank those techniques slippe through cracks to characters who shouldn't have been able to get or use them yet.

This is me speaking for myself, however, and other staff, especially those a actually in creation, may have differing (and probably more accurate) views. I just wanted to throw in my piece, let you know that it isn't being ignored, and encourage this helpful flavor of comment you employ~

P.s. I appologise for any errors in this post, I'm writing it from my phone an both the touch screen and autocorrect hate me xD

Posts : 363

Is there a particularly reason why the Chakra Conductivity SC is a B-rank? Besides the numerous examples of Genin manipulating weapons via chakra, it seems like a whole lot less controversy could be had if the SC was C-rank, or better yet, was C to B, or C to A, that way you could allow some of the less extreme but still forbidden to Genin techniques without allowing everyone to make flaming swords. And I don't see much argument for it being too advance, not with what the site does allow. What's the big reason for with-holding it? But I've no power. Just looking at it as an outsider.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

What Alex said is pretty spot on. We're still having a minor debate on it, but what we did agree on was this: Any jutsu that allows the user to channel their chakra into an owned object (such as a weapon) requires the Chakra Conducting Special Characteristic. The only exception to this is Fuuinjutsu, which is obviously allowed to embed chakra onto surfaces or chakra paper via seals. That being said, certain techniques (Like your listed leaf thing) allow for manipulation of solids, but going as far as to say "controlling anything with chakra requires conductivity" would be ungodly detrimental to Doton and Suiton users. That leaf thing was a Ninjutsu after all, and it turned a regular leaf into a weapon; as opposed to turning a weapon into a better weapon. Although to be fair, it's very similar to the roof tile shuriken jutsu which is in fact a weaponry technique, so that jutsu may be reevaluated.

The lightning manifestation jutsu is supposed to have it implied that it requires the special characteristic, however since this seems to be confusing a lot of people we intend to add a disclaimer to each chakra consuming Weaponry technique. Do remember though; weapons are lethal enough as it is and without having to consume chakra. It shouldn't be a big deal that chakra coated weapons are limited to B-rank and above ninja. If anything it's an advantage just to have a weapon.

In regards to the 4 Fuuton fan based jutsu. Those were originally ninjutsu techniques, except they all required a fan to use (and thus, it would be impossible to use them unless one had both Ninjutsu and Weaponry as specialties). As such, it was made into weaponry techniques, however the descriptions weren't really changed. As mentioned before, all chakra consuming weaponry techniques are going to have a disclaimer in their description.

The torpedo needle thing is canonically a C-rank tech I believe, which is why it always remained a C-rank. To be honest, it's a pretty overpowered ability, and it's very unusual for anyone to be carrying nails. That jutsu may or may not be scrapped entirely. Best case scenario, it'll definitely be altered to be less abusable than it currently is. I recall Eric using it to nearly destroy Kiseki ages ago.

Senbon Shower: I don't even know what to think of this.. It'll probably be changed to have a button that releases needles.. instead of say, doing the torpedo needle thing except through the air.

Bottom Line: Any weaponry technique that coats the weapon in chakra, requires the special characteristic. No exceptions.

Additional Note: It's B-rank because making it C-rank removes the entire point of having it limited in the first place. Genin are inexperienced, they shouldn't have such fine tuned chakra control.

Posts : 1729

Wait wait wait wait wait, wait. Enzo, are you saying my Chakra Conductive Weapon, cannot be used to conduct chakra, unless I have the Chakra Conductivity SC? Because if that's the case, what's the bloody POINT of Chakra Conductive Weaponry? Because to read the SC, once you have it, ANY weapon can be coated with chakra, regardless of rank and abilities.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Mors Atra wrote:: Wait wait wait wait wait, wait. Enzo, are you saying my Chakra Conductive Weapon, cannot be used to conduct chakra, unless I have the Chakra Conductivity SC? Because if that's the case, what's the bloody POINT of Chakra Conductive Weaponry? Because to read the SC, once you have it, ANY weapon can be coated with chakra, regardless of rank and abilities.

That kind of does seem like a kick in the teeth to Weaponry. If you have to have an SC to use the whole point behind a B-rank or higher weapon, but that SC lets you do everything that anything short of an S-rank weapon could do, why bother getting any B-ranked weapon? You could get the exact same perks out of a C-rank weapon and save 6 CP for other stuff.

If it was me, I would read it as you need need the Special Characteristic OR a Chakra-Conductive weapon to utilize techniques that actually push chakra through the business end (and only such - I'm hoping you're not saying any weaponry technique that uses CP...). The SC having the advantage of allowing the use of whatever comes to hand while the chakra-conductive weapon frees up an SC slot at the expense of being pricey (particularly for one-shot weapons like kunai). If someone had both then they could get some extra perk (reduced CP cost, more damage, whatever) for being so heavily invested in that. Sort of like how ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc all have their own perks (one speciality even having all that PLUS a profession all to itself). That way weapon-specialists aren't effectively required to take a particular SC, unlike every other specialty, simply to use one of the things that is supposed to be an advantage of the specialty.

That or the staff just made more work for themselves because now they have to sit down and figure out what each nature does when put into a weapon, decide what sort of costs that entails, and who it works. Considering the character is paying 15 xp and an SC slot for JUST the option to channel chakra into a weapon, it would have to be a major advantage to make it remotely worth the cost. Compared to it's closest ninjutsu equivalent, that would be at least a 30% hike in damage (which still seems pointless since what the hell does 30% increase in a fatal wound actually mean) and something comparable to the various second elements/ immunity/ whatever perks those SC's provide.

That sounds like a whole lot of work which is going to take months to resolve, based on past updates, while putting every weaponry-using character into limbo on upgrades. All to give a point to an SC that wasn't viewed as worth updating the jutsu in the encyclopedia for? I would think at that point it would make more sense to yank the SC and redo it entirely to fit within the existing rules than to screw with an entire specialty just to give it a point.

Oh and should I point that NONE of this "need the SC to put charka into a weapon" was posted anywhere that normal members have access to? Not everyone visits the chatbox regularly or is on when these are discussed. It would be appreciated if the people who are going to be affected by sudden decisions were actually informed WHEN those decisions are made and not weeks later and through a thread that may or may not be relevant. Even better would be to know when something like this is up for discussion; just in my own case I need to completely rethink what sort of additional weapons Toshiro will get AND have two of his existing weapons redone because their whole purpose was rendered moot thanks to a decision that I wasn't even informed of or party to. Now I get to argue with people who seem to take a positive delight in being mule-headed about stupid points just to avoid spending yet more xp to fix what wasn't broken at the time.

Age : 31 Posts : 471

Just because Enzo is a busy man and I can help out with some of these concerns, I will.

T, we've spoken over Skype, but I'll clarify here for anyone else who was wondering to see; if part of a B ranked weapon's abilities is that it is chakra conductive, you don't need the SC. If you want to charge any other weapons with chakra, however, you'll need the Special Characteristic to do so. If you don't have the SC, you shouldn't be able to use jutsu that describe charging something with chakra. If you do have the SC, you can't charge things with chakra willy nilly, you simply have the ability to use techniques that describe doing so (with an appropriate CP cost).

Nuke, I'll leave your comments to be addressed by Enzo, as any answer I could give would be made with varying amounts of guesswork which wouldn't do your arguments justice. I just have to say that, in relation to this;

Quote :: Not everyone visits the chatbox regularly or is on when these are discussed.

while I understand and acknowledge that discussions in the chatbox about site rules and such do happen, and often the people involved come out enlightened (be it staff, regular members, or both), I hope you're not under the impression that general discussion about upcoming site updates is a regular or planned thing. Occasionally things leak, like talk of the opening of Kirigakure, but we don't make a habit of conducting important system reforms on there... Members who just so happen to be unlucky enough to not be in chat at a certain time don't miss out on ground breaking info.

Anywhoozle~ I guess I'll leave this topic in the hands of the expert

* Rolls out *

Posts : 363

Quote :: Additional Note: It's B-rank because making it C-rank removes the entire point of having it limited in the first place. Genin are inexperienced, they shouldn't have such fine tuned chakra control.

On what basis? Compared to all of the other C-rank techniques that we're allowed, why is surrounding an object in chakra inherently more complex than the Puppet Master Jutsu? If we're allowed to convert chakra into flames, create barriers of chakra to surround yourself, convert your body, clothing, and appearance into an entirely different one, extract chakra from one person's body into your own, convert your hair into spikes and launch them from your body, summon a being from miles away to your location to serve you, create chakra scalpels, and a myriad of other seemingly complex abilities, why is sending a chakra through an object such a chore?

And if we're talking Canon, well...

Quote :: Soushuriken no Jutsu - Manipulate Shuriken Technique
Soushuriken Character Use: Uchiha Sasuke
Rank: D
Range: Close (0m ~ 5m), Mid (5m ~ 10m), Far (10m+)
Type: Supplementary

Soushuriken
Soushuriken no Jutsu is a Ninjutsu used Uchiha Sasuke. After hurling his giant shuriken, Sasuke can control their path and movements by using wires which run from the shuriken itself back to his arm. Because his opponent will think they are normal shuriken, they will be off guard about their ability to redirect themselves.

A canon D-rank which allows the user to manipulate the trajectory and direction of a Shuriken in mid-air. It is non-elemental, it is a Ninjutsu. And since all Ninjutsu all required to use chakra, it raises the question of how he's moving a shuriken in mid-direction. How do Ninja do about every thing?

Chakra.

But, as aforementioned, I'm able to live with the rule. My problem is when things aren't uniform :/ But, these things take time.

Also, when ya have time Enzo, I'd love to discuss Ten-Ten's jutsus some time ^.^

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Okay, wow. First off; both of you chill out. Now, take a deep breath, and stop jumping to conclusions. I'm going to go through this a paragraph at time, so let us begin:

Quote :: That kind of does seem like a kick in the teeth to Weaponry. If you have to have an SC to use the whole point behind a B-rank or higher weapon, but that SC lets you do everything that anything short of an S-rank weapon could do, why bother getting any B-ranked weapon? You could get the exact same perks out of a C-rank weapon and save 6 CP for other stuff.

The SC does not do the same as a B-rank weapon. The SC gives you access to weaponry techniques that would require one to coat the weapon in chakra to fully utilize. ie. a flaming shuriken or a lightning coated piercing kunai. B-rank weapons enhanced with chakra do not need their own jutsu to use. One can simply coat the weapon in chakra and use it; along with using any jutsu with their weapon that they wish. Having a B-rank weapon with chakra enhanced properties means you do not have to waste an SC on chakra conductivity. The weapon, on its own, is able to conduct chakra. That means any jutsu you have that say, launches a blast of water from a sword via a weaponry technique, would not need the SC because the sword itself is fully capable of being coated with chakra. It's easier to work with something that is designed to perform a certain action; rather than force something without such a designed to perform the same act. In layman's terms, it's easier to use a chakra enhanced weapon, then to make a hunk of iron do chakra things. That is why there is an SC.

Quote :: If it was me, I would read it as you need need the Special Characteristic OR a Chakra-Conductive weapon to utilize techniques that actually push chakra through the business end (and only such - I'm hoping you're not saying any weaponry technique that uses CP...). The SC having the advantage of allowing the use of whatever comes to hand while the chakra-conductive weapon frees up an SC slot at the expense of being pricey (particularly for one-shot weapons like kunai). If someone had both then they could get some extra perk (reduced CP cost, more damage, whatever) for being so heavily invested in that. Sort of like how ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc all have their own perks (one speciality even having all that PLUS a profession all to itself). That way weapon-specialists aren't effectively required to take a particular SC, unlike every other specialty, simply to use one of the things that is supposed to be an advantage of the specialty.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to greatly disagree with you. The benefit of weaponry is not to coat items in chakra, it is to use weapons in general. Just like how the benefit of Ninjutsu is to spit fireballs, or how Genjutsu creates illusions. Medical heals, Puppetry uses weapons at a distance, Taijutsu makes one better with their body. Weaponry has the added benefit of being able to coat things in chakra, and this is far more useful than the Taijutsu user's ability to coat their hands in chakra. They can't for instance, launch fireballs from the tip of their pinky like a weaponry user can with their sword; nor can they lunge projectiles at the enemy that can stun them from 15m away. Weaponry is by far one of the strongest specialties, especially since it can cover all the possible ranges; while still having a whole second specialty to choose from. In fact, giving Weaponry users the ability to coat anything in chakra at will actually nullifies the need for B-rank weapons at all, moreso than having the chakra conducting SC as mentioned before. The benefit of weaponry is not to coat items in chakra, but to use LETHAL machines DESIGNED for killing for NO CHAKRA at all. No other specialty has this benefit.

Quote :: That or the staff just made more work for themselves because now they have to sit down and figure out what each nature does when put into a weapon, decide what sort of costs that entails, and who it works. Considering the character is paying 15 xp and an SC slot for JUST the option to channel chakra into a weapon, it would have to be a major advantage to make it remotely worth the cost. Compared to it's closest ninjutsu equivalent, that would be at least a 30% hike in damage (which still seems pointless since what the hell does 30% increase in a fatal wound actually mean) and something comparable to the various second elements/ immunity/ whatever perks those SC's provide.

That sounds like a whole lot of work which is going to take months to resolve, based on past updates, while putting every weaponry-using character into limbo on upgrades. All to give a point to an SC that wasn't viewed as worth updating the jutsu in the encyclopedia for? I would think at that point it would make more sense to yank the SC and redo it entirely to fit within the existing rules than to screw with an entire specialty just to give it a point.

Going to practically ignore these two paragraphs, as it appears you're attempting to teach the staff how to do their job; which is beyond insulting. We have extensive discussions about what would be the most fair for the site. Before the SC, it was anarchy in regards to how to deal with chakra coating in general. We may not make perfect decisions, but it's damn hard to come up with very good ideas when most of the time we're working in the dark. Excuse the few faults such as being forgetful enough as to update the encyclopedia, but we're still human and I even stated we had the full intent on correcting our errors.

Quote :: Oh and should I point that NONE of this "need the SC to put charka into a weapon" was posted anywhere that normal members have access to? Not everyone visits the chatbox regularly or is on when these are discussed. It would be appreciated if the people who are going to be affected by sudden decisions were actually informed WHEN those decisions are made and not weeks later and through a thread that may or may not be relevant. Even better would be to know when something like this is up for discussion; just in my own case I need to completely rethink what sort of additional weapons Toshiro will get AND have two of his existing weapons redone because their whole purpose was rendered moot thanks to a decision that I wasn't even informed of or party to. Now I get to argue with people who seem to take a positive delight in being mule-headed about stupid points just to avoid spending yet more xp to fix what wasn't broken at the time.

http://www.ultimateshinobi.org/t5182-site-updates#65748 This was posted ages ago. It's not our duty to inform every member on the forum individually when something new is added. We have site updates for a reason, and we can't force you to read them; however you can't throw the "I didn't know" card and blame us when it was written in plain black and white.. In September.

Quote :: On what basis? Compared to all of the other C-rank techniques that we're allowed, why is surrounding an object in chakra inherently more complex than the Puppet Master Jutsu? If we're allowed to convert chakra into flames, create barriers of chakra to surround yourself, convert your body, clothing, and appearance into an entirely different one, extract chakra from one person's body into your own, convert your hair into spikes and launch them from your body, summon a being from miles away to your location to serve you, create chakra scalpels, and a myriad of other seemingly complex abilities, why is sending a chakra through an object such a chore?

First off, I apologize for the little confusion in my statement. What I meant was "If we made it C-rank, then what's the point of making B-rank weapons be chakra conductive at all?" In regards to the rest of your paragraph; most of your examples are fairly incomparable to controlling an animate object with chakra. The only one that stood out was puppetry; but puppetry users do it because it's the whole point of their art; as I mentioned before, the whole point of weaponry is not to coat things in chakra, it's to use weapons. You have to know how to fight with a sword before you can learn how to make that sword glow red hot, and that's what's inherently different about Weapons and everything else. Weaponry is using weapon, not sending your chakra into it. To do so is a completely different skill, unlike spitting fire, or creating chakra scalpels from chakra which are PART of the skills of Ninjutsu and Eijutsu respectively.

Quote :: A canon D-rank which allows the user to manipulate the trajectory and direction of a Shuriken in mid-air. It is non-elemental, it is a Ninjutsu. And since all Ninjutsu all required to use chakra, it raises the question of how he's moving a shuriken in mid-direction. How do Ninja do about every thing?

No offense, but this is a really bad example. First off; everything on the two most commonly used Naruto resource sites (Leafninja and Naruto Wiki) are classified as Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Fuuinjutsu and Taijutsu. There is no medical, puppetry or weaponry, and as such the quote itself is flawed. On our site, such a technique would fall under weaponry. Also, using a canon example is never a really good method of backing up your logic. It has been stated numerous times that our site is simply based off the canon; it does not follow it word for word. We took the basic ideas of Kishimoto's work and tried to turn it into a consistent fanfiction. There will always be exceptions, because writers do not write to please fanfictions or forums; they write to please fans. As such, there will always be massive inconsistencies between two things supposedly classed as equals. The writer could care less if they're perfectly consistent, as long as it makes for an interesting plot; and to be honest, it almost always does. Why do you think there are characters that are ungodly powerful like Madara and Obito? Because the writer can introduce these characters if they want, it's their own work. If we allowed such characters on the site, it would ruin the power balance between characters. Writers write to suit the plot, not to suit fair game. If a very over powered character is introduced, there will always be a protagonist there able to cover the weaknesses of this antagonist. This is not always true in fanfic; and as such there need to be more strict rules.

The reason I mention this is not to simply rant; but to build up to my point. We have to state rules for things such as chakra conducting weapons, because they follow this same logic. Having it readily available for everyone would drastically unbalance the RP. Weaponry users would be inherently more powerful than all other specialties, and unless we drew a line somewhere, then this would in fact be the case. You may not agree with where the line is drawn, however from previous experience, we found this is the best place to draw this line. And this line states that unless you're a Chuunin with the special characteristic of chakra conductivity, you cannot coat every weapon you have with chakra.

Posts : 363

I don't understand how exactly it would unbalance RP. Taijutsu user's can surround their limbs and bodies in chakra. Puppeteers are allowed to manipulate their puppets in nearly every imaginable fashion. Ninjutsu users are able to project their chakra in numerous ways- In fact, they can even use their elements on their weapons. While they can't surround their weapons in chakra, channeling heat or electricity through a weapon is accomplish-able even without having a B-rank weapon or SC. And no amount of argument can dispute that bit of physics. If your hand is hot enough to heat a weapon, the weapon will be heated. If you're channeling electricity through your hands, any metallic object will conduct it. So unless you're telling me you're rewriting physics for heat and electricity, it seems to me Ninjutsu has the advantage. I mean look at it- You can create clones, weapons, blasts, giant monsters, generate barriers, trade places with random logs at instantaneous speed. Weapons are used to hit people. Sure, chakra can make swinging your sword have a little more edge, but in no ways would Weapons overpower the sheer utility and power of Ninjutsu, not when you guys allow Genins to use two Elements from the get-go.

If Canon techniques are bad examples, so is your encyclopedia, frankly. I think I've made that clear by now Razz

Now, I'm not even saying everyone should be able to turn their swords into chakra chainsaws. But I think tool manipulation via chakra, i.e. using your chakra to spin an Umbrella into the air or sending energy down a string to manipulate it from a distance is no more powerful than someone making a lightning whip. In fact, it would seem to me that most ninjutsu variants of a technique will be stronger. The only real advantage I see weapon users having besides a greater number of items is that by default, they're better when not fighting with chakra. But it seems to be Ninjutsu in comparison to Weaponry, be it your encylopedia or custom made techniques by users, are more powerful. The only REAL downside of Ninjutsu off-hand would be the Hand Seal requirement, which you allow to be mitigated to varying degrees.

So off-hand I have trouble seeing what would become unbalanced. So some illustrations of why this would break weaponry into an overpowered specialty would be appreciated :0 At least for me to understand, anyway. But I acknowledge I haven't been apart of your past discussions on the subject. I hope to one day be invited~

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Oh I'm well aware of the SC and I was when it came out in September. What I wasn't aware of, and what the ensuing replies to Shiro's post seemed to suggest, was a later discussion that had resulted in a decision that the SC was required to do the whole "coating" bit with any weapon - chakra-conductive or otherwise. Now since that what has been said is basically that I was on the right track with the "convince versus cost" of having the ability on the weapon versus having the SC, it's obvious that it was a case of ambiguous words, arguments that had unintended interpretations, and the lack of an actual statement to the fact that you needed the SC or a chakra-conductive weapon (being left to players to assume) that created the plausible and rather alarming possible case that Mors raised and I responded to.

I suggest in the future "just watch how you word things." Your own words to me Enzo. This all could have been prevented with a less ambiguous wording such as "weapons can not be coated with chakra without this SC unless they are made from chakra conductive material" to the SC and an hour of sorting through the encyclopedia to copy & paste "requires a chakra-conductive weapon or Chakra Conducitivtiy SC" just above the CP costs. An hours work (and that is probably very excessive) to do something that had it been done when the SC first came out would have cleared up most of this.

And it's not about major changes that make it to the Site Updates section I'm asking about. It's a compiled list, updated when the decision is made just like a characters account after an evaluation is done, in one spot that doesn't require searching a mountain of archived threads to find that contains all the rulings about implementation of the rules that staff make that do not make that section. For example the change you made to the Kamitachi when you ruled it too powerful for a C-rank and changed the basic version comes to mind. Anyone who had that jutsu (and I know at least one character with its original form) and wasn't following that particular thread wouldn't know about the new version except by blind luck and heaven help them if someone had an issue with their using the old version in a thread. That is the sort of thing a complete list of changes and rulings at least reduces the occurrences of by making the information accessible and that a change happened visible. It also makes for more consistent decisions across the staff because then staff members can find out what the official interpretation of something is without having to hunt down someone who was privy to whatever thread(s) established the ruling. Which may or may not be the intended official ruling depending on who was involved.

In short what I'm asking about is getting a way to maybe lower the work load on the self-described overworked staff by providing a place where players can go to keep up on changes to the implementation of the rules that don't make it into the site updates without having to constantly post here. I never asked to be individually informed, I never said I didn't know about the SC and changes (I was one of the first to alter his existing character to fit the new rules and I did so completely from my own desire to keep up to date with the rules), and I most certainly didn't tell you how to "do your job" even if based on some past cases I wonder if I couldn't do a better job than some of the staff of at least checking to see if a jutsu or something like it is already in the Encyclopedia before saying "denied". You assumed those and like the old saying goes made an ass out of yourself and tried to drag me in in the process.

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth in the future. Especially when you then turn around and try to belittle me for those same words. Now if you don't mind I'm done here. I've gotten what seems to be an official interpretation and been shown just how readily some staff will resort to the very behavior they profess to dislike if someone has the audacity to suggest that, based on available information, a mistake might have been made. I'm sure Shiro can point out well enough how weaponry is neither more or less powerful than the other specialties which have zero rules forbidding (and many examples of) techniques that cover multiple ranges and even methods of fighting that use no CP (taijutsu, poison, etc). All without being vulnerable to having the principle requirement stolen, deliberately destroyed, and available only in limited numbers and further limited by CP like all other jutsu.

Age : 32 Posts : 869

I'm just going to quote Enzo on something seeing how I think you missed it

Enzo wrote:: The benefit of weaponry is not to coat items in chakra, but to use LETHAL machines DESIGNED for killing for NO CHAKRA at all. No other specialty has this benefit.

Get it? With weaponry you are allowed to have a sword, that can kill with just one strike. Can any ninjutsu, genjutsu, eijutsu or fuuinjutsu do that? No it can't. Now sure, puppetry has these weapons too but, you are a weapon specialist and you can move and attack much faster than a puppet can.

Shiro wrote:: Taijutsu user's can surround their limbs and bodies in chakra. Puppeteers are allowed to manipulate their puppets in nearly every imaginable fashion. Ninjutsu users are able to project their chakra in numerous ways- In fact, they can even use their elements on their weapons. While they can't surround their weapons in chakra, channeling heat or electricity through a weapon is accomplish-able even without having a B-rank weapon or SC. And no amount of argument can dispute that bit of physics. If your hand is hot enough to heat a weapon, the weapon will be heated. If you're channeling electricity through your hands, any metallic object will conduct it.

Can a C ranked chakra embed fist pierce through you? Can it cut your head or any limb for that matter? Can a ninjutsu do that? No it can't. Most of taijutsu and ninjutsu, if not all, aren't fatal until they reach A rank. And you, with C rank basic weapon can kill just about anybody with just one single swing. Not to mention you don't have to waste a single chakra point. Just get the Speed, Stregth, Evasion, Pinpoint accuracy, Endurance SC and you're basically a walking killing machine and you wouldn't need to use chakra at all meaning you could go all day long swinging your sword at somebody without getting exhausted while your opponent would have wasted all his chakra by the 8th post if not sooner. So don't go telling me that Weaponry is not one of the most powerful and versatile specialities on the site and that you just NEED to conduct chakra through them at C rank because somehow a sword that can kill you just like that is inferior to a ninjutsu that can only deal only that much damage.

We can easily replace every C ranked weapon with wooden swords, wooden axes, sticks and so on if you want to conduct chakra through them so bad. But that wouldn't be fair from our part, however it would certainly balance things out, neither you nor anybody else can kill at C rank. Instead you get the advantage to kill from the start, while others have to wait to reach B rank to even THINK of getting lethal jutsus and getting one at A rank and they have to waste a considerate amount of chakra to use it, and they might miss while when you miss with a swing, you just swing one more time until you hit.

All in all, your logic makes no sense and you're comparing apples and oranges, it simply cannot be compared. And to me, you all just look buthurt that you can't conduct chakra through weapons at C rank and have to wait to reach chunnin, which usually goes fast if you're active. So I don't plan on wasting more of mine or your time on this topic.

Posts : 363

I rather hate it when you guys insist on thinking things are apples and oranges. Its short-sighted. And frankly, its blatantly closing your eyes. Apples and Oranges are both fruit. And if you peel them both, you still put them into your mouth and chew it. And frankly, no matter how much you insist an Apple is an Apple, and Orange is an Orange, you're not dealing with them alone. How do you know something to be an Apple and what is an Orange without comparing them? Of course I'm comparing Apples and Oranges. How will I ever know what's an orange and what's an apple if we don't discuss what makes them it? If they were both apples there's be nothing to discuss in the first place. So please, stop using that as some sort of defense with any validity. As far as I'm concerned, a forum is one great Orchard bearing tons of different fruit. I'm partial to Bananas personally.

Lets digest this sweet meal, shall we?

A weapon kills people. Duh. Every Ninja, regardless of their specialty kills people. But how often do I ask you does the average shuriken or Kunai hit? How many times do a random projectile actually draw blood? How far will you get just swinging a sword against people who can spew flames from their mouth? C-rank Ninjutsus not lethal? Breaking your opponents neck won't kill them? You guys even have a Taijutsu in your encyclopedia named "Chimei-teki Fera - Fatal Blow". How in the world is the average C-rank technique not lethal in comparison to some flashy sword swing a weapon user comes up with? Taking a naruto fireball directly without an escape means you burn. Unless you're Orochimaru. -Shakes his fist-. Taking a rock to the head with enough force is lethal. A powerful electrical charge can stop the heart regardless of your rank. A wind jutsu at point blank can tear out your eyes.

And I can kill someone with my barehands. Real world me. Me. Thin. Wimpy. Me. I think a taijutsu buff can accomplish it too.

As to no other specialty providing chakraless means of murder, we only have to look at Puppet users and Medical ninja for poison use, a method where even the smallest of cuts can mean death. Even with lower ranks poisons I imagine being far less lethal, the fact that even small amounts can disable is far more potent an effect than have a heavy metal hunk that you can swing at people. Chakra manipulation doesn't make weaponry strongers- It just means they can do more with it. As is, C-rank and lower weaponry consists simply of people either basically using Taijutsu while holding weapons or trying to cheat techniques that aren't supposed work.

Furthermore, who said you could channel chakra through wood? If so, does that let Archers essentially be able to channel chakra through their wooden bows or arrows? Because if that's what you're telling me now, its only a further blatant hole in your guy's chakra applying system. Is that what you're telling me? Because you guys think channeling chakra through metal is overpowered I should go cheat out an archer? And why shouldn't I do the same for spears? If it has a wooden shaft, why don't I just go and channel chakra through all but the pointed end? And SCs are just as potent for one specialty as another. Being incredibly fast is good no matter what type of techniques use. Being able to knock away giant rocks with a single blow is helpful regardless of what range your character is. Being able to take tons of hits will make you durable regardless of your specialty. BOTH Taijutsu and Weaponry are more reliant on physical prowess, but that means not having them can make you pitiful. And frankly, if its SCs that make weapon users overpowered, maybe you should look at them, maybe? I believe Enzo is currently on the job of editing them.

And you're telling me that if a Taijutsu user ever create a C-rank jutsu chakra allowed him to make jabs by surroundings his fingers in sharpened chakra, you'd deny him on the basis of it "Being too much like weapons?" Because I can think of a myriad of Ninjutsus that create sharp objects. Some of which happen to be in this very thread.

Finally...Cutting people isn't the only way to kill them. Cutting isn't inherently a better way to kill people. In fact, if we look at history, putting holes in people seems to be doing a better job than slicing off fingers.

Age : 32 Posts : 869

Quote :: I rather hate it when you guys insist on thinking things are apples and oranges. Its short-sighted. And frankly, its blatantly closing your eyes. Apples and Oranges are both fruit. And if you peel them both, you still put them into your mouth and chew it. And frankly, no matter how much you insist an Apple is an Apple, and Orange is an Orange, you're not dealing with them alone. How do you know something to be an Apple and what is an Orange without comparing them? Of course I'm comparing Apples and Oranges. How will I ever know what's an orange and what's an apple if we don't discuss what makes them it? If they were both apples there's be nothing to discuss in the first place. So please, stop using that as some sort of defense with any validity. As far as I'm concerned, a forum is one great Orchard bearing tons of different fruit. I'm partial to Bananas personally.

Lets digest this sweet meal, shall we?

Television and animals, let's move on.

Quote :: How far will you get just swinging a sword against people who can spew flames from their mouth?

It will actually get you pretty far. You can swing your sword forever, he can only spew flames for only that long until he has no chakra left.

Quote :: C-rank Ninjutsus not lethal?

Yes, C ranked jutsus are not lethal. If you cared to read the rules you would know that but I'm going to show it to you here

Quote :: C-rank: The average rank of jutsu. These type of techniques are also frequent partakers in a genin’s arsenal and take up a large amount of a chuunin’s. Techniques of this rank usually do an average amount of damage or moderate aid. Weapons and equipment of this rank are efficient but still hold nothing chakra conductive. An example of a C-ranked technique would be Kuchiyose no Jutsu (Summoning Technique).

Quote :: Breaking your opponents neck won't kill them?

To break a neck you first must grab the head, and you need a large amount of force to actually snap somebodies neck. Also no, a broken neck doesn't mean death. It might, but it doesn't mean every broken neck means death. Also answer me this. Who's going to kill who faster. Me swinging a sword at you, or you trying to break my neck.

Quote :: You guys even have a Taijutsu in your encyclopedia named "Chimei-teki Fera - Fatal Blow". How in the world is the average C-rank technique not lethal in comparison to some flashy sword swing a weapon user comes up with?

Don't judge a book by it's cover. This technique is Fatal by it's name only. Have you even bothered to read the whole jutsu?

Quote :: Taking a naruto fireball directly without an escape means you burn.

Burning doesn't mean dying. Sure, an A ranked fireball will kill you, a C rank will only cause 1st degree burns.

Quote :: Taking a rock to the head with enough force is lethal.

Given that a rock has been thrown with extreme power and speed yes, it will kill. Otherwise, nope. I have seen many people get hit by a rock in the head. All they got is a cut which did cause bleeding, but they sure didn't die from it.

Quote :: A powerful electrical charge can stop the heart regardless of your rank.

If it's an A ranked jutsu than yes, otherwise it won't.

Quote :: A wind jutsu at point blank can tear out your eyes.

Haha, no.

Quote :: And I can kill someone with my barehands. Real world me. Me. Thin. Wimpy. Me. I think a taijutsu buff can accomplish it too.

To kill somebody with your bare hands, you would need to wale at the person's head for quite some time.

Quote :: As to no other specialty providing chakraless means of murder, we only have to look at Puppet users and Medical ninja for poison use, a method where even the smallest of cuts can mean death.

Again, at higher rank they do mean death, but a C rank jutsu or poison will never, ever, be able to kill.

Quote :: Even with lower ranks poisons I imagine being far less lethal, the fact that even small amounts can disable is far more potent an effect than have a heavy metal hunk that you can swing at people.

Again, a C ranked poison would make you feel nauseous, nothing so serious that would incapacitate you. And it only lasts for few posts, after that you're at full strength again.

Quote :: Chakra manipulation doesn't make weaponry strongers- It just means they can do more with it.

Yes, you can do more with a weapon which can already kill by itself.

Quote :: Furthermore, who said you could channel chakra through wood? If so, does that let Archers essentially be able to channel chakra through their wooden bows or arrows? Because if that's what you're telling me now, its only a further blatant hole in your guy's chakra applying system. Is that what you're telling me? Because you guys think channeling chakra through metal is overpowered I should go cheat out an archer? And why shouldn't I do the same for spears? If it has a wooden shaft, why don't I just go and channel chakra through all but the pointed end?

I never said you can channel chakra through wood. I said that we could make C ranked weapons made all out of wood and allow you to channel chakra through it. For now, even if you DO get a wooden sword, you wouldn't be able to channel chakra through it.

Quote :: And SCs are just as potent for one specialty as another. Being incredibly fast is good no matter what type of techniques use. Being able to knock away giant rocks with a single blow is helpful regardless of what range your character is. Being able to take tons of hits will make you durable regardless of your specialty. BOTH Taijutsu and Weaponry are more reliant on physical prowess, but that means not having them can make you pitiful. And frankly, if its SCs that make weapon users overpowered, maybe you should look at them, maybe? I believe Enzo is currently on the job of editing them.

I do think that stacking the Speed, power, evasiveness, endurance SC makes you a bit too much powerful and Enzo said that he is already working on it.

Quote :: And you're telling me that if a Taijutsu user ever create a C-rank jutsu chakra allowed him to make jabs by surroundings his fingers in sharpened chakra, you'd deny him on the basis of it "Being too much like weapons?" Because I can think of a myriad of Ninjutsus that create sharp objects. Some of which happen to be in this very thread.

It wouldn't be denied, but it would be at least B rank because controlling chakra in such a way is much more difficult than you might think.

Quote :: Finally...Cutting people isn't the only way to kill them. Cutting isn't inherently a better way to kill people. In fact, if we look at history, putting holes in people seems to be doing a better job than slicing off fingers.

And you can create a hole with stabbing somebody, however I do not see the point of this reply.

Posts : 363

Quote :: Television and animals, let's move on.

Ninjutsu and Weaponry. Not the same thing. Hence, worth discussing.

Quote :: It will actually get you pretty far. You can swing your sword forever, he can only spew flames for only that long until he has no chakra left.

No, he can't swing his sword forever. People get tired. Heavy metal objects are heavy. Or are you telling me you guys allow people to fight forever? Each of his swings are relatively human speed (Varying with SCs, which the opponent can also have) and incapable of long-ranged combat. Furthermore, since any ninja can use a Ninjato, you can spend all day swinging the smaller blade. The Guide doesn't say D-rank weapons won't cut people as easily as a sword will, only that its more durable. So in a theoretical chakra-less fight the ninjato would break before the sword. But since weapons aren't unbreakable, that's been made very clear to us, so a Weaponry user's various techniques are crippled when the main weapon is broken. Meanwhile, other specialties have no such reliance on a tool. Meanwhile, its a bit harder to "Disarm" a taijutsu user, who has a different for every part of his body. GROIN BLOW FTW! xP
Plus, swords are mid-range weapons, so technically if a taijutsu user gets close, he'd have the range advantage. But no, back to seriousness. A Broken neck means you're either dead or you're effectively crippled.

Quote :

Yes, C ranked jutsus are not lethal. If you cared to read the rules you would know that but I'm going to show it to you here

Quote :: C-rank: The average rank of jutsu. These type of techniques are also frequent partakers in a genin’s arsenal and take up a large amount of a chuunin’s. Techniques of this rank usually do an average amount of damage or moderate aid. Weapons and equipment of this rank are efficient but still hold nothing chakra conductive. An example of a C-ranked technique would be Kuchiyose no Jutsu (Summoning Technique).

Ya know you' make a better case if it mentioned lethality anyway in its description. What I see is average and moderate. An average jutsu is meant to harm someone. After all, Ninjas traditionally in the series are soldiers, assassins, and killers. An E-rank technique has the potential to kill. Now, will a C-rank be a one-hit kill? Maybe not. But how many times do you guys allow weapon users to get one hit kills, hmm? If anything, weapons have a notorious fail-rate of hitting, especially projectiles

Quote :: Don't judge a book by it's cover. This technique is Fatal by it's name only. Have you even bothered to read the whole jutsu?

Yes. Are you telling me a knee to the ribs can't have the potential to break bones and crush lungs?

Quote :: Burning doesn't mean dying. Sure, an A ranked fireball will kill you, a C rank will only cause 1st degree burns.

Where does it say that? Where in the guides does it say Fire techniques only cause 1st degree burns to opponents? Where does it say in C-rank jutsus that the flames are only hot enough for mild burns? Where does it say that if I set my opponent on fire with a c-rank technique they'll get away with non-life threatening burns? Please, all wise mods, show me where these decisions have been made. Because average damage in battle does not seem like mild burns.

Quote :: Given that a rock has been thrown with extreme power and speed yes, it will kill. Otherwise, nope. I have seen many people get hit by a rock in the head. All they got is a cut which did cause bleeding, but they sure didn't die from it.

In real life? In Naruto? Be more clear. Because whenever I've brought up any Naruto-based scene you guys immediately shoot in down. But if we're talking real world physics, well, I've already brought up how a pen dropped from the empire state building can kill someone. It doesn't take much for a big rock falling on top of someone to crush them. You merely have to google rock falls and rock accidents for examples of people being killed. And no, they don't need to be that big, and they don't even need to fall from that high. The human skull isn't that durable. My stepmother broke her skull open just from a bad fall and ended up needing life-or-death surgery. If gravity alone can kill someone, so can one good rock.

Quote :: If it's an A ranked jutsu than yes, otherwise it won't.

Its not a matter of rank, its a matter of physics. Especially if an individual has a weak heart. If you shock someone all day with a C-rank jutsu, you're telling me they'll live? If so, you guys aren't really bothering to be realistic. Which, I know, in Naruto is a bit silly in the first place with how durable they have humans, but I'm trying to get a sense of how you guys roll.

Quote :: Yes, you can do more with a weapon which can already kill by itself.

A Martial Artist can kill. A child with a pencil stabbing someone else's eyes can kill. A ninja who can summon the elements and use them as he pleases can kill. Murder isn't that hard to accomplish. If anything, you seem to be insisting the patheticness of non-weaponry ninja more than the "ZOMG POWER!" of weapon users.

Quote :: I never said you can channel chakra through wood. I said that we could make C ranked weapons made all out of wood and allow you to channel chakra through it. For now, even if you DO get a wooden sword, you wouldn't be able to channel chakra through it.

You were suggesting wooden weapons could channel man. And frankly, a wooden blade is just as deadly as a metal one. If it can cut, the substance doesn't matter. What it would mean is that weapons would be far more fragile. But my apologies. I assumed you were suggesting ninjas could channel chakra through wood. Which, honestly, seems quite the possibility, since you guys allow ninjas to turn leaves into blades.

Quote :: It wouldn't be denied, but it would be at least B rank because controlling chakra in such a way is much more difficult than you might think.

If I can use a D-rank jutsu to make leaves turn into makeshift shuriken, why is making my own hand, a put of my body, into a stabbing weapon require a B-rank level of ability? You'll argue no doubt that this is apples and oranges again, but chakra is chakra. Leaves may not be hands, but my hands are physically connected to my body and channel chakra through them. And yes, I'm aware that the leaf ninjutsu will likely be deleted. But knowing me I can dig through your encyclopedia to find a similar variation of chakra usage which you'd also argue is different.

Quote :: I do think that stacking the Speed, power, evasiveness, endurance SC makes you a bit too much powerful and Enzo said that he is already working on it.

No disagreement. Perhaps a limit to the number of them you could have would be an effective method of preventing their abuse.

Age : 32 Posts : 869

IMPORTANT: Shiro, I pressed on Edit instead of Quote on your post and I pressed Send without noticing and it edited your post with what I wanted to say. Luckily I quoted you a lot, if not everything, not sure, but I tried bringing it back as best as I could, and I'm terribly sorry for what happened. If I missed something please say so. Again, terribly sorry. Back to the post

Quote :: Ninjutsu and Weaponry. Not the same thing. Hence, worth discussing.

How can something that is not remotely the same, as you said it yourself, be discussed? I don't understand.

Quote :: No, he can't swing his sword forever. People get tired. Heavy metal objects are heavy. Or are you telling me you guys allow people to fight forever? Each of his swings are relatively human speed (Varying with SCs, which the opponent can also have) and incapable of long-ranged combat. Furthermore, since any ninja can use a Ninjato, you can spend all day swinging the smaller blade. The Guide doesn't say D-rank weapons won't cut people as easily as a sword will, only that its more durable. So in a theoretical chakra-less fight the ninjato would break before the sword. But since weapons aren't unbreakable, that's been made very clear to us, so a Weaponry user's various techniques are crippled when the main weapon is broken. Meanwhile, other specialties have no such reliance on a tool. Meanwhile, its a bit harder to "Disarm" a taijutsu user, who has a different for every part of his body. GROIN BLOW FTW! xP

He sure can swing his sword for much longer than you can spew fire. As a genin you can use around 10 jutsus, and you will use more of them in one post, usually. You can swing a sword, much, much more than that. And again, not every ninja can use a Ninjato. Sure you can swing it around like an idiot, but the skill needed to use it efficiently can be only achieved by a Weaponry user. When your main weapon is broken, you grab the secondary weapon. But once taijutsu's user hands are broken, he can't pull another pair of his hands to fight. Sure he can fight with his legs, but you will still have both your arms and legs available.

Quote :: Plus, swords are mid-range weapons, so technically if a taijutsu user gets close, he'd have the range advantage.

One word. Kunai. I think I don't have to say anything more about this.

Quote :: But no, back to seriousness. A Broken neck means you're either dead or you're effectively crippled.

Wrong, to some degree. While it may be those two things, it can be also just a broken neck, that will need to be immobilized with a neck brace to heal itself. And with that people can still freely walk. Sure, in a fight when you break a neck like that, you can move, but it would make it even worse.

Quote :: Ya know you' make a better case if it mentioned lethality anyway in its description.

If lethality isn't mentioned, than it's not lethal. Easy as that.

Quote :: What I see is average and moderate. An average jutsu is meant to harm someone. After all, Ninjas traditionally in the series are soldiers, assassins, and killers.

I just don't know what to say on this. You're just stating the obvious.

Quote :: An E-rank technique has the potential to kill someone after all.

Nope. Not in a million years.

Quote :: Now, will a C-rank be a one-hit kill? Maybe not. But how many times do you guys allow weapon users to get one hit kills, hmm? If anything, weapons have a notorious fail-rate of hitting, especially projectiles

It's not us who allow how many times somebody get's hit. It's for your opponent to decide if he gets hit or not. If you think he avoided something he couldn't have possibly avoid, than Eval mods come in play. Also, if you give a good explanation on why that is a one hit kill, I don't see why deny it.

Quote :: Yes. Are you telling me a knee to the ribs can't have the potential to break bones and crush lungs?

As a C rank jutsu, no.

Quote :: Where does it say that? Where in the guides does it say Fire techniques only cause 1st degree burns to opponents? Where does it say in C-rank jutsus that the flames are only hot enough for mild burns? Where does it say that if I set my opponent on fire with a c-rank technique they'll get away with non-life threatening burns? Please, all wise mods, show me where these decisions have been made. Because average damage in battle does not seem like mild burns.

I'll say this only once. What it says on the description of the jutsu, then that will happen. If it says it causes 1st degree burns, than it will cause 1st degree burns, if it doesn't it won't. If it says that the fire will cause life threatening burns, than the burns will be life threatening, if it doesn't say so, that it won't be life threatening.

Quote :: In real life? In Naruto? Be more clear. Because whenever I've brought up any Naruto-based scene you guys immediately shoot in down. But if we're talking real world physics, well, I've already brought up how a pen dropped from the empire state building can kill someone.

Are you going to drop a pen from the Empire State Building in a fight? No you aren't, and to actually reach the speed that the pen reached when falling from the building you would need to have one HECK of a strong throw, which only an A ranked ninja could be able to achieve.

Quote :: It doesn't take much for a big rock falling on top of someone to crush them. You merely have to google rock falls and rock accidents for examples of people being killed. And no, they don't need to be that big, and they don't even need to fall from that high. The human skull isn't that durable. My stepmother broke her skull open just from a bad fall and ended up needing life-or-death surgery. If gravity alone can kill someone, so can one good rock.

A rock has to be thrown with high enough power to actually be able to kill. While a big rock can kill you by smashing you, you won't see genins lifting such rocks and throwing them at you any time soon.

Quote :: Its not a matter of rank, its a matter of physics. Especially if an individual has a weak heart. If you shock someone all day with a C-rank jutsu, you're telling me they'll live? If so, you guys aren't really bothering to be realistic. Which, I know, in Naruto is a bit silly in the first place with how durable they have humans, but I'm trying to get a sense of how you guys roll.

However, you won't be shocking somebody with C ranked jutsu all day long since you don't have infinite amount of chakra. And yes, they will be able to live through those shocks because the jutsus were never meant to kill, only give you a shock.

Quote :: A Martial Artist can kill. A child with a pencil stabbing someone else's eyes can kill. A ninja who can summon the elements and use them as he pleases can kill. Murder isn't that hard to accomplish. If anything, you seem to be insisting the patheticness of non-weaponry ninja more than the "ZOMG POWER!" of weapon users.

Given the right rank a martial artist can kill. A stab to the eye doesn't mean instant kill, A ninja who can summon elements can kill with the given rank.

Quote :: You were suggesting wooden weapons could channel man. And frankly, a wooden blade is just as deadly as a metal one. If it can cut, the substance doesn't matter. What it would mean is that weapons would be far more fragile. But my apologies. I assumed you were suggesting ninjas could channel chakra through wood. Which, honestly, seems quite the possibility, since you guys allow ninjas to turn leaves into blades.

Wooden blade as deadly as a metal one? I don't think so. Also about the leaves jutsu, it's being reworked.

Quote :: If I can use a D-rank jutsu to make leaves turn into makeshift shuriken, why is making my own hand, a put of my body, into a stabbing weapon require a B-rank level of ability? You'll argue no doubt that this is apples and oranges again, but chakra is chakra. Leaves may not be hands, but my hands are physically connected to my body and channel chakra through them. And yes, I'm aware that the leaf ninjutsu will likely be deleted. But knowing me I can dig through your encyclopedia to find a similar variation of chakra usage which you'd also argue is different.

I already told you why that jutsu would be B rank. That level of control of the chakra is beyond the level of a genin. And thus it would be a B rank. And yes, the leaves jutsu will be remade.

Quote :: No disagreement. Perhaps a limit to the number of them you could have would be an effective method of preventing their abuse.

It's being worked on by Enzo

Posts : 363

Lol. No prob man. Accidents happen, although I gotta admit I don't think I've ever accidentally edited someone else's post. Anyone who remembers differently feel free to remind me though- Seven years of forum modding makes the brain full of holes.

Quote :: He sure can swing his sword for much longer than you can spew fire. As a genin you can use around 10 jutsus, and you will use more of them in one post, usually. You can swing a sword, much, much more than that. And again, not every ninja can use a Ninjato. Sure you can swing it around like an idiot, but the skill needed to use it efficiently can be only achieved by a Weaponry user. When your main weapon is broken, you grab the secondary weapon. But once taijutsu's user hands are broken, he can't pull another pair of his hands to fight. Sure he can fight with his legs, but you will still have both your arms and legs available.

But you've been telling me C-rank jutsus can't break bones, so how will a Taijutsu user ever have his bones broken against a Genin weapon user? It seems to me that you think bones are more durable than steel. And flames should be more dangerous than a weapon. If it isn't, then you guys HAVE made weaponry too strong, and it should see a power nerf, not a nerf of what you can do with it. I mean if you're telling me swinging a sword is more powerful than every technique a Genin can manage to pull out...Well, that's just frankly pathetic, and whomever decided the power of the average jutsu should be scolded.

Quote :: A rock has to be thrown with high enough power to actually be able to kill. While a big rock can kill you by smashing you, you won't see genins lifting such rocks and throwing them at you any time soon.

In the Encyclopedia you have a B-rank jutsu which lets ninjas pick up giant rocks the size of buildings. I think a C-rank version of the technique letting you raise and throw a human-sized rock would be fairly possible in comparison. Or are you telling me picking up rocks with doton is beyond a Genin's abilities too, hmm?

Quote :: One word. Kunai. I think I don't have to say anything more about this.

Most mid-range weapons require two hands to use effectively, and if they wanna take their time sheathing their weapon to draw a knife or just drop their sword, that's fine with me. Meanwhile, it takes no time for a Taijutsu user to draw "Their" weapons.

Quote :: Wrong, to some degree. While it may be those two things, it can be also just a broken neck, that will need to be immobilized with a neck brace to heal itself. And with that people can still freely walk. Sure, in a fight when you break a neck like that, you can move, but it would make it even worse

http://www.apparelyzed.com/broken-neck.html

You do not wanna be moving around with a broken neck. In fact, the pain would probably make it near impossible. I'm not talking five days later with some rest. I'm saying if you get a broken neck you're more or less helpless to your opponent at that point. You're gonna need either some real willpower or creative jutsu.

Quote :: If lethality isn't mentioned, than it's not lethal. Easy as that.

I can't believe that opinion to honestly be anything but moronic, and I'm typically willing to understand someone else's point of view.

Quote :: Nope. Not in a million years.

... I use the transformation jutsu to turn a clone into a kunai.. I then use that Kunai to rip someone throat open. It doesn't matter that the Kunai is an E-rank weapon. It doesn't matter that the kunai was created from an E-rank technique. It doesn't matter that their a Kage. If you take your knife and slit open a person's throat and they are unable to respond with a technique, they are dead. Yes, cutting open someone's throat without them expecting it isn't gonna happen alot. But I used an E-rank jutsu to kill my foe. And if you're saying its impossible for my cutting their throat to kill them was caused E-rank transformation, I really will have lost faith in the rules. o.o Now, if you wanna argue over the transformation technique, be my guest. But it isn't hard for me to find other E-rank jutsus that can be used to kill someone. It doesn't matter the rank of the technique Ivan. Dead is dead.

Quote :: As a C rank jutsu, no.

But a normal person's beating another normal person can result in broken bone. So why can't trained professionals using chakra-enhanced blows break bones, hmm?

Quote :: Wooden blade as deadly as a metal one? I don't think so. Also about the leaves jutsu, it's being reworked.

Yeah, wood might be a poor example, agreed. In retrospect its just not a good cutting material. Stabbing? Little better.

Quote :: I already told you why that jutsu would be B rank. That level of control of the chakra is beyond the level of a genin. And thus it would be a B rank.

How do you determine exactly what's beyond a Genin's control? Where's the guide to the level of chakra applications? I know you're saying it would be beyond a Genin's control. But I wanna know how you come to that conclusion, and if its something the staff as a whole would agree on, how they came to that conclusion. Understanding man. I wanna know them Apples and them oranges :p

Quote :: I'll say this only once. What it says on the description of the jutsu, then that will happen. If it says it causes 1st degree burns, than it will cause 1st degree burns, if it doesn't it won't. If it says that the fire will cause life threatening burns, than the burns will be life threatening, if it doesn't say so, that it won't be life threatening.

Then what kind of damage, Ivan, do the fire techniques do that don't say what kind of damage it does. I don't see Katon jutsus saying they do 1st degree burns. If it said, yes, it would be clear. But they don't say. They don't say they cause 1st degree burns. So why are you telling me C-rank fire techniques cause 1st degree burns?

Age : 32 Posts : 869

Quote :: But you've been telling me C-rank jutsus can't break bones, so how will a Taijutsu user ever have his bones broken against a Genin weapon user? It seems to me that you think bones are more durable than steel. And flames should be more dangerous than a weapon. If it isn't, then you guys HAVE made weaponry too strong, and it should see a power nerf, not a nerf of what you can do with it. I mean if you're telling me swinging a sword is more powerful than every technique a Genin can manage to pull out...Well, that's just frankly pathetic, and whomever decided the power of the average jutsu should be scolded.

Have I ever said that a C ranked weapon user can break a taijutsu users bones? No. But if you insist, a weapon user can easily put a sword between him and the punch coming at him and easily block it while damaging the fist by cutting it. I don't see a taijutsu user blocking a sword slash with his bare hands.

Quote :: In the Encyclopedia you have a B-rank jutsu which lets ninjas pick up giant rocks the size of buildings. I think a C-rank version of the technique letting you raise and throw a human-sized rock would be fairly possible in comparison. Or are you telling me picking up rocks with doton is beyond a Genin's abilities too, hmm?

I haven't seen a B ranked Doton jutsu that allows you to "pick up" rocks the size of a building.

Quote :: Most mid-range weapons require two hands to use effectively, and if they wanna take their time sheathing their weapon to draw a knife or just drop their sword, that's fine with me. Meanwhile, it takes no time for a Taijutsu user to draw "Their" weapons.

First of all, a weapon user is as great in close combat as is a taijutsu user. While a tai user is effective with his fists, the weaponry user is with his weapons. In which case a weaponry user could avoid this one punch and pull out his kunai and attack at close range. But than again, a weaponry user who fights at mid range will usually simply back off and keep fighting at mid range.

Quote :: I can't believe that opinion to honestly be anything but moronic, and I'm typically willing to understand someone else's point of view.

If you do not understand it than the moron are you my good sir. And in the future, I would ask you to refrain on insulting me.

Quote :: I use the transformation jutsu to turn a clone into a kunai.. I then use that Kunai to rip someone throat open. It doesn't matter that the Kunai is an E-rank weapon. It doesn't matter that the kunai was created from an E-rank technique. It doesn't matter that their a Kage. If you take your knife and slit open a person's throat and they are unable to respond with a technique, they are dead. Yes, cutting open someone's throat without them expecting it isn't gonna happen alot. But I used an E-rank jutsu to kill my foe. And if you're saying its impossible for my cutting their throat to kill them was caused E-rank transformation, I really will have lost faith in the rules. o.o Now, if you wanna argue over the transformation technique, be my guest. But it isn't hard for me to find other E-rank jutsus that can be used to kill someone. It doesn't matter the rank of the technique Ivan. Dead is dead.

A clone that can deal physical damage is usually a B rank. And if you want to pull the Water Clone one me, don't. A water clone is made of water, and as far as I know, water alone cannot cut without extreme pressure.

Quote :: But a normal person's beating another normal person can result in broken bone. So why can't trained professionals using chakra-enhanced blows break bones, hmm?

A C ranked taijutsu or weaponry user doesn't have enough strength to break bones so easily even if chakra is involved.

Quote :: How do you determine exactly what's beyond a Genin's control? Where's the guide to the level of chakra applications? I know you're saying it would be beyond a Genin's control. But I wanna know how you come to that conclusion, and if its something the staff as a whole would agree on, how they came to that conclusion. Understanding man. I wanna know them Apples and them oranges :p

It's up to each moderator to determine what is beyond genins control and what not. That's why 2 mods need to moderate and approve one application. And to how we determine it, well look at the Scalpel jutsu for the medical ninjas. That's B rank.

Quote :: They don't say they cause 1st degree burns. So why are you telling me C-rank fire techniques cause 1st degree burns?

Cause common logic. Different types of fire give different types of burns. If you can't use your head to understand that and need everything written, than so be it. Will will write the bur degrees for every katon jutsu since you don't know how it works.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Okay, both of you, chill the fuck out. Second time I've had to say this. Now this has seriously gotten out of hand, and I can't even stomach reading the last 3 responses because this has essentially become a dick measuring contest; and sorry to tell you guys this; but I obviously have the largest penis. So stop trying to play your opinions out as facts.

Here are the facts: Weaponry has an advantage among all the other specialties in that it allows one to providing swift, clean, and simple killing force, for a very minimal cost. Even though puppetry users (who require chakra to use their puppets) and medical users both have poisons; medical users have to use weapons to actually administer the toxins; so simply stating that: Poison > Weapons is a completely flawed argument in and of itself. My opinion, is that weapons are one of the most underrated, and simultaneously powerful of the specialties. Let opinions rest, and refrain from trying to change my mind.

Second; the reason it's difficult to channel chakra into a weapon and not say, the fingers, which are directly connected to the body and are a part of the chakra circulatory system, is because weapons are either distant, or not designed for such an act. Conducting fingers or hands in chakra is significantly easier to do than coating a foreign object in the same substance. Especially when that foreign object is not supposed to be coated at all. Think of it this way: Remember when Naruto was doing his Fuuton training, and he could easily slice the chakra enhanced piece of paper with a simple touch; but when it came to the leaf it took him days worth of powerleveling just to get a small cut in it? Yeah, this is a very similar concept. In both instances, you're channeling chakra into a foreign object, to achieve a certain effect. The main difference is; Naruto was trying to use his chakra to cut the leaf; where as weaponry users are using the very same method to enhance the ability of their 'leaf'.

Weaponry users have a natural edge in conducting objects with chakra, because their main fighting style is centered around using objects. They get attached to their fighting style if you will. It still requires significant training to get the ability to coat any random object in chakra, and this training is detailed by advancement to Chuunin and gaining an SC. The reason it requires an SC, is because otherwise chakra enhanced weapons become entirely useless. And the reason Chuunin is required; is to show that the character actually has experience in this. Would you honestly believe that a Genin fresh out of the academy would be able to coat their steel sword with flames? I sure as hell wouldn't. ~~Most~~ All Genin we've seen who happened to coat weapons in chakra and use chakra-based techniques with their weapons, were preparing to graduate to Chuunin. In fact, anyone who enters the Chuunin Exam is in their Sensei's eyes; ready to become a Chuunin. Which means these ninja were already Chuunin level; they just didn't have the honorary title to go along with it. Until you give me an example where Konohamaru is able to telepathically levitate a shuriken; your arguments about weapons and everything else being identical are completely null and void. Additionally, most of your examples were incredibly flawed, and it appeared as though you were arguing for the sake of argument. Next time, do be more specific in the point you're trying to make, instead of listing a bunch of examples that are quite obviously irrelevant (I know you're smart; don't act like you didn't know). Provide clean and concise explanations for each example, instead of listing them out like lyrics to a pop song.

Since this topic has gotten so out of hand; any future posts best introduce an idea not already proven false; and proceed to explain this idea in full detail. Otherwise it's just spam to keep this debate alive. You may repost any previous examples, however try to understand both sides of the argument before immediately jumping to rash conclusions such as "Chakra fingers = chakra knives" Remember; it's not the coating in general. It's what's being coated.

Side note: That leaf ninjutsu you keep bringing up is just an example of an overlooked technique. It's that needle in a haystack that shouldn't be the basis for an argument when the problem can easily be remedied.

P.S. Sorry if I offended you Nuclear, I wasn't exactly in the best mood when writing my response, but that's hardly an excuse. The whole argument spawned on what was mainly a misunderstanding, which in hindsight should have been avoided in the first place. For the record however; it did offend me when you spent two paragraphs going over how we handled things, and your suggestions on what we should have done. I'm sure you can see why it's very easy to interpret that as "telling us how to do our job." Alas; this is going greatly off topic.

P.P.S. Your suggestion for a more informed populace will be duly noted. I, along with the rest of the staff, will try to keep everyone as informed and up to date as possible, small and large changes alike.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

First, thank you for actually saying sorry and I can completely understand the whole bad mood seeping into ones post. I wasn't exactly in a sunshine-and-flowers mindset either that morning and I'm sure it affected my choice of words somewhat.

Just to make absolutely clear what words set me off so that any additional posters won't go flying off the handle.

Quote :: "Any jutsu that allows the user to channel their chakra into an owned object (such as a weapon) requires the Chakra Conducting Special Characteristic."

The bolded, assuming they can been seen as this knew font doesn't seem to play nice with plain black text when bolded, is the words that really set my and probably Mors's hackles to stand on end in the first place and made us wonder when the interpretation of "need the SC to do anything related to coating weapons in chakra" had been made.

Though I still stand by my stance that weaponry is neither more, nor less, powerful than other specialties. All ultimately depend on just how effective and creative the player is and how honest the other guy is at not not power-playing their character.

Also in thinking about it, shouldn't any of the "launching fireballs from a sword" (unless it's some crazy S-rank sword) really be ninjutsu or a ninjutsu/ weaponry hybrid? In effect what someone is doing is "casting" a ninjutsu with the weapon acting as a stand-in for the handseals. Making such abilities fall under weaponry seems very much like a way to get around the whole specialty limit so one could effectively use ninjutsu, weapons, and another specialty. Ditto for the kamitachi and other such jutsu. And yes if that would require new B and C-ranked stuff I'm willing to donate any or all of the ones I've created as well as the ones I'm working on to refilling the Encyclopedia.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Going to jump straight to your question to save time, although like I said, I understand where the confusion lies. Twas my poor wording, and it's usually how I describe it in the context of enhanced weaponry; although I guess the context was poorly applied at the time.

Also, to clarify, I don't think weaponry users are able to actually perform ninjutsu related techniques with their weapon. Swiping a sword that's on fire to create a fire wave or something is plausible; but simply launching a fireball from the tip is leaning a lot more toward Ninjutsu than Weaponry in my opinion. The Kamitachi technique is one of those black sheep of jutsu that are very hard to organize; since it does effectively both at the same time. To me it seems more logical to make those type of techniques (that basically produce a ninjutsu effect using a weapon) require both the Ninjutsu and Weaponry specialty to utilize. In doing so however, we'd have to remove similar techniques from the encyclopedia since they're far too specific in terms of specialties. Encyclopedia jutsu are meant to be 1 specialty techniques, as opposed to combinations such as Nin-Wep. Doing this would also limit some of the creative ability behind Weaponry based jutsu, especially when we have a specialty like Fuuinjutsu that can replicate a great majority of Ninjutsu techniques.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

True, that does open another can of worms. Ah the joys of trying to wring consistency from cannon material that is the very definition of inconsistency.

Posts : 1044

Well, as the source of this concept here (or as far as I remember it, maybe Gabe came up with it and I just gave it a name...) in the first place via da' Ingoos (back in the dawn of time), I would just like to say that I now find the idea to be ridiculous by its nature and the only logic I can come up with to support why channeling chakra into an object would be more difficult than anything else would be that its full of stuff (namely metal.) I thought about it though...and so is your body. Its actually full of way more stuff, delicate stuff actually, that if you use your chakra in so much as SLIGHTLY the wrong way, it would kill you (because chakra is capable of doing terrible damage raw as well as able to take elemental form inside your body.) Channel out the wrong tunnel? Boom, internal bleeding, muscle damage, bone destruction, cellular poisoning, internal burn damage, electrolyte imbalance...wow, just about anything really could happen like that...I don't feel like I need to illustrate that point too much, I'm assuming its really apparent what I mean.

So, if a Taijutsu user can get chakra in their fists, around their veins, nerves, bones, and muscles without doing any harm whatsoever to themselves, that alone requires a degree of control that not even real world surgeons could match in the time that it takes them (two seconds to 'power up' generally.) And similarly, a Ninjutsu user is able to guide chakra through their whole body to whatever point is needed and then convert it into whatever elemental nature is required, without harming themselves (somehow ninjas are immune to the heat generated by being close to fireballs when they make them...curious eh?) All of these things are nothing compared to medical shinobi who use Eijutsu (fun fact: also came up with that term, turns out I mistranslated...awkward....) but anyways...these people not only do what the Taijutsu user does but they do it better, and they do it to other people, which requires such a level of finesse that the only way I could compare it to real-life would be to say that its like taking the previously mentioned surgeon and then asking them to perform eye surgery from the moon with a laser pointer.

This all leads back to our weaponry user. Do you know what he has to do? Or really ANY shinobi who has a weapon in hand? Put chakra in an object where it literally doesn't matter where you put it, or how you put it, because its entirely a chunk of metal. Thats actually EASIER than using chakra any other way, though it admittedly has to clear your normal chakra systems, but I've already assumed this is a simple task while its unformed in your cells and the like. So in reality, putting chakra into a shuriken isn't as hard as putting it in your fist, fun fact there if ya really thought about it (or just read this post.) So every Genin on the site is capable of chakra control feats that are already far more ridiculous than they're given credit (forming clones out of thin air and moving at the speed of sound...definitely things you expect 10yr olds to be able to do...) but they are somehow dumb-founded when it comes to putting chakra into a rock. Or a kunai. Or an adult diaper (I don't judge your choice of weaponry.)

So to be clear: You can channel chakra through your delicate bodily systems with no harm done (don't even have to be a medic), but you can't channel it through a rock, because?...I dunno, presumably just because the site says so, cause' there isn't another argument that I can even imagine existing that is going to convince anyone that metal or inanimate objects are more complex than a human body.

In short: This is all silly in the first place and I regret ever coming up with the concept, implementing it, and then noticing this thread and realizing just how crazy out of hand it had gotten since I last checked...do me a solid. Quit the shit. I know it won't happen because people are creatures of habit (and I fully expect to see some backwards attempt at logic'ing our way out of this problem in order to defend said habit) but if I can say "Man, I used to be stupid.", you'll all get there too. Promise. Ya have to let go first though.

That aside, this sub argument that weapons are somehow better than everything else because they give you a free, cheap, effective killing implement...I'm not sure I understand correctly, but this is a Naruto site and you all mention senbon, kunai, and shuriken in the same posts you discuss how weaponry users are the only ones with weapons...I'm not sure how to respond to this frankly, theres failing to see the forest for the trees and then failing to see the forest in your hands and saying only that other forest 6 miles away is a forest.

A kunai is lethal. A senbon is lethal. A shuriken is lethal. A wire is lethal.

For the unimaginative, take any bladed instrument (or piano wire) and slit your wrists horizontally. Don't call 911. Tell me how that goes over (protip: please don't, I can't afford anymore lawsuits...) Now, I've already seen the argument that Weaponry users get more EFFECTIVE weapons but as someone who has extensively used weaponry on the very same genre of site systems you use now, I can assure you that a sword is inferior to a Kunai if I need to waste limited resources to have one. If you'll notice in the canon (and also logically) weapons clash regardless of their size, weight, skill, etc. and kunai can literally stop swords (ex. Head Clever v Kakashi's Kunai) so really having a sword is only an advantage for reach...but when you can move at super sonic speeds...reach means absolutely nothing.

Because shinobi weapons are all high quality material and even in the land of fictional metals and weapons, metal is still metal and is pretty damn good at stopping other metals. Not to mention if the argument is that you need a spec. to have lethal options (I literally lol'd at some of these posts that C Rank jutsu aren't lethal...please let me know how you can survive having even a D Rank taijutsu fist delivered to your spine. I wasn't aware that 'spinal strength' was determined by a jutsu rank check, I was pretty certain its treated as a 'spine' regardless of what rank hits it. Maybe I'm silly...Also, if you break someones neck, they die. Pretty much period. Or they're crippled for life, so ya might as well be dead because you can't be a ninja anymore if you're wheelchair bound...reroll) then please note that you are carrying, via ninja kits, at all times at least a dozen lethal weapons.

BUT lets go EVEN FURTHER and assume that I still haven't convinced you to abandon my old trash concepts (please put it away, I'm embarrassed to even look at it anymore...) for reasons unknown...somehow we've come to the conclusion that swords are better than kunai (despite being incapable of throwing one, another point I didn't mention) and we're sticking to it. Okay, fine. Lets go ahead and assume that non-Weaponry SC weapons somehow can't kill people (they have S-Rank spines now or something, and eyes, and ears, and internal organs, and mouths...etc.) and that you can't just punch people in those spots with your bare hands (protip: you can.) Even going this far? You STILL have access to lethal weapons.

Every environment has weapons built into it. I recall seeing a comment that rocks to your head don't kill you, I would like to counter that sufficiently big rocks do (they only need to be about the size of a pumpkin to give you lethal injury for example) and also that wood is not weak (don't listen to what Anime about the strength of materials, just in general, otherwise you have to conclude that in the Naruto universe human bodies are literally sturdier than every other substance ever shown on screen...and that is a dark path...) and that a decently thick stick with a pointed edge (20% of loose debris) can be jabbed in someone's orifices and kill them. Similarly, you can just drown them. Suffocate them in mud. Bash their head against some trees/rocks. Just so many ways you can kill someone with the environment...no jutsu required.

So again, this boils down pretty simply. Weaponry is not some sort of godly option that it needs to be artificially nerfed by disallowing a level of chakra control involving it that anyone with another spec is capable of doing better (or, worse yet, the exact same character can but just not in that way...somehow...) The best counter-example I could expect would be Kugutsu, you could tell me that its also really fine control, but I don't know how you could go from there to a point that I haven't already disarmed...but you're welcome to try. So I personally say bin the whole concept of 'chakra conductive' as a barrier to effectiveness of any sort, jutsu or weaponry, because it makes no logical sense and there is no mechanical reason to limit weaponry users who have already sacrificed a limited resource to be able to use weapons...when they already have weapons...

See? I'm contributing to the site. Can I not be chatbox banned without even a PM explanation as to how I judged from a warning to a chatbox ban, for an unspecified amount of time, now? Thanks bros.

Hi Enzo, I look forward to your post wall. Please be gentle. Its been a while since I've had to have post-wall debates with people over theoretical Naruto concepts. Probably 1-2 years now...3-4 for real substantial stuff.

Posts : 363

Hageshii Ame wrote:: Well, as the source of this concept here (or as far as I remember it, maybe Gabe came up with it and I just gave it a name...) in the first place via da' Ingoos (back in the dawn of time), I would just like to say that I now find the idea to be ridiculous by its nature and the only logic I can come up with to support why channeling chakra into an object would be more difficult than anything else would be that its full of stuff (namely metal.) I thought about it though...and so is your body. Its actually full of way more stuff, delicate stuff actually, that if you use your chakra in so much as SLIGHTLY the wrong way, it would kill you (because chakra is capable of doing terrible damage raw as well as able to take elemental form inside your body.) Channel out the wrong tunnel? Boom, internal bleeding, muscle damage, bone destruction, cellular poisoning, internal burn damage, electrolyte imbalance...wow, just about anything really could happen like that...I don't feel like I need to illustrate that point too much, I'm assuming its really apparent what I mean.

So, if a Taijutsu user can get chakra in their fists, around their veins, nerves, bones, and muscles without doing any harm whatsoever to themselves, that alone requires a degree of control that not even real world surgeons could match in the time that it takes them (two seconds to 'power up' generally.) And similarly, a Ninjutsu user is able to guide chakra through their whole body to whatever point is needed and then convert it into whatever elemental nature is required, without harming themselves (somehow ninjas are immune to the heat generated by being close to fireballs when they make them...curious eh?) All of these things are nothing compared to medical shinobi who use Eijutsu (fun fact: also came up with that term, turns out I mistranslated...awkward....) but anyways...these people not only do what the Taijutsu user does but they do it better, and they do it to other people, which requires such a level of finesse that the only way I could compare it to real-life would be to say that its like taking the previously mentioned surgeon and then asking them to perform eye surgery from the moon with a laser pointer.

This all leads back to our weaponry user. Do you know what he has to do? Or really ANY shinobi who has a weapon in hand? Put chakra in an object where it literally doesn't matter where you put it, or how you put it, because its entirely a chunk of metal. Thats actually EASIER than using chakra any other way, though it admittedly has to clear your normal chakra systems, but I've already assumed this is a simple task while its unformed in your cells and the like. So in reality, putting chakra into a shuriken isn't as hard as putting it in your fist, fun fact there if ya really thought about it (or just read this post.) So every Genin on the site is capable of chakra control feats that are already far more ridiculous than they're given credit (forming clones out of thin air and moving at the speed of sound...definitely things you expect 10yr olds to be able to do...) but they are somehow dumb-founded when it comes to putting chakra into a rock. Or a kunai. Or an adult diaper (I don't judge your choice of weaponry.)

So to be clear: You can channel chakra through your delicate bodily systems with no harm done (don't even have to be a medic), but you can't channel it through a rock, because?...I dunno, presumably just because the site says so, cause' there isn't another argument that I can even imagine existing that is going to convince anyone that metal or inanimate objects are more complex than a human body.

In short: This is all silly in the first place and I regret ever coming up with the concept, implementing it, and then noticing this thread and realizing just how crazy out of hand it had gotten since I last checked...do me a solid. Quit the shit. I know it won't happen because people are creatures of habit (and I fully expect to see some backwards attempt at logic'ing our way out of this problem in order to defend said habit) but if I can say "Man, I used to be stupid.", you'll all get there too. Promise. Ya have to let go first though.

That aside, this sub argument that weapons are somehow better than everything else because they give you a free, cheap, effective killing implement...I'm not sure I understand correctly, but this is a Naruto site and you all mention senbon, kunai, and shuriken in the same posts you discuss how weaponry users are the only ones with weapons...I'm not sure how to respond to this frankly, theres failing to see the forest for the trees and then failing to see the forest in your hands and saying only that other forest 6 miles away is a forest.

A kunai is lethal. A senbon is lethal. A shuriken is lethal. A wire is lethal.

For the unimaginative, take any bladed instrument (or piano wire) and slit your wrists horizontally. Don't call 911. Tell me how that goes over (protip: please don't, I can't afford anymore lawsuits...) Now, I've already seen the argument that Weaponry users get more EFFECTIVE weapons but as someone who has extensively used weaponry on the very same genre of site systems you use now, I can assure you that a sword is inferior to a Kunai if I need to waste limited resources to have one. If you'll notice in the canon (and also logically) weapons clash regardless of their size, weight, skill, etc. and kunai can literally stop swords (ex. Head Clever v Kakashi's Kunai) so really having a sword is only an advantage for reach...but when you can move at super sonic speeds...reach means absolutely nothing.

Because shinobi weapons are all high quality material and even in the land of fictional metals and weapons, metal is still metal and is pretty damn good at stopping other metals. Not to mention if the argument is that you need a spec. to have lethal options (I literally lol'd at some of these posts that C Rank jutsu aren't lethal...please let me know how you can survive having even a D Rank taijutsu fist delivered to your spine. I wasn't aware that 'spinal strength' was determined by a jutsu rank check, I was pretty certain its treated as a 'spine' regardless of what rank hits it. Maybe I'm silly...Also, if you break someones neck, they die. Pretty much period. Or they're crippled for life, so ya might as well be dead because you can't be a ninja anymore if you're wheelchair bound...reroll) then please note that you are carrying, via ninja kits, at all times at least a dozen lethal weapons.

BUT lets go EVEN FURTHER and assume that I still haven't convinced you to abandon my old trash concepts (please put it away, I'm embarrassed to even look at it anymore...) for reasons unknown...somehow we've come to the conclusion that swords are better than kunai (despite being incapable of throwing one, another point I didn't mention) and we're sticking to it. Okay, fine. Lets go ahead and assume that non-Weaponry SC weapons somehow can't kill people (they have S-Rank spines now or something, and eyes, and ears, and internal organs, and mouths...etc.) and that you can't just punch people in those spots with your bare hands (protip: you can.) Even going this far? You STILL have access to lethal weapons.

Every environment has weapons built into it. I recall seeing a comment that rocks to your head don't kill you, I would like to counter that sufficiently big rocks do (they only need to be about the size of a pumpkin to give you lethal injury for example) and also that wood is not weak (don't listen to what Anime about the strength of materials, just in general, otherwise you have to conclude that in the Naruto universe human bodies are literally sturdier than every other substance ever shown on screen...and that is a dark path...) and that a decently thick stick with a pointed edge (20% of loose debris) can be jabbed in someone's orifices and kill them. Similarly, you can just drown them. Suffocate them in mud. Bash their head against some trees/rocks. Just so many ways you can kill someone with the environment...no jutsu required.

So again, this boils down pretty simply. Weaponry is not some sort of godly option that it needs to be artificially nerfed by disallowing a level of chakra control involving it that anyone with another spec is capable of doing better (or, worse yet, the exact same character can but just not in that way...somehow...) The best counter-example I could expect would be Kugutsu, you could tell me that its also really fine control, but I don't know how you could go from there to a point that I haven't already disarmed...but you're welcome to try. So I personally say bin the whole concept of 'chakra conductive' as a barrier to effectiveness of any sort, jutsu or weaponry, because it makes no logical sense and there is no mechanical reason to limit weaponry users who have already sacrificed a limited resource to be able to use weapons...when they already have weapons...

See? I'm contributing to the site. Can I not be chatbox banned without even a PM explanation as to how I judged from a warning to a chatbox ban, for an unspecified amount of time, now? Thanks bros.

Hi Enzo, I look forward to your post wall. Please be gentle. Its been a while since I've had to have post-wall debates with people over theoretical Naruto concepts. Probably 1-2 years now...3-4 for real substantial stuff.

I freaking love you

I don't recall having spoke before

I don't know if I've ever pissed you off before

And I don't know if anyone else here will care about what you've said

But its like you've taken everything I've been trying to say for weeks and put it in one single great post

I salute you sirrah~

Age : 32 Posts : 869

Quote :: I thought about it though...and so is your body. Its actually full of way more stuff, delicate stuff actually, that if you use your chakra in so much as SLIGHTLY the wrong way, it would kill you (because chakra is capable of doing terrible damage raw as well as able to take elemental form inside your body.) Channel out the wrong tunnel? Boom, internal bleeding, muscle damage, bone destruction, cellular poisoning, internal burn damage, electrolyte imbalance...wow, just about anything really could happen like that...I don't feel like I need to illustrate that point too much, I'm assuming its really apparent what I mean.

So, if a Taijutsu user can get chakra in their fists, around their veins, nerves, bones, and muscles without doing any harm whatsoever to themselves, that alone requires a degree of control that not even real world surgeons could match in the time that it takes them (two seconds to 'power up' generally.)

You also forget that chakra is as you know, a part of your body, something you live with for your entire life. The chakra constantly circles around your body and it never stops. It's basically the blood, the only difference is that you can control it. Now as for controlling it, you never actually change the direction of the flow of the chakra, instead, you focus a larger amount of it in that part of the body you wish to use. Also, if we are going to use Naruto cannon in this little chat, you remember when Kakashi told Naruto how much he wastes chakra when using a normal bunshin aka. using it the wrong way? How many times has he failed molding chakra to make a technique at the begging of the show? I don't think I ever saw him getting his internal organs blown up. So I don't see why using your chakra the "wrong" way would cause such damage to the user. The only thing that would happen is either the jutsu won't work, or it would use too much chakra and it wouldn't be as strong.

Quote :: All of these things are nothing compared to medical shinobi who use Eijutsu (fun fact: also came up with that term, turns out I mistranslated...awkward....) but anyways...these people not only do what the Taijutsu user does but they do it better, and they do it to other people, which requires such a level of finesse that the only way I could compare it to real-life would be to say that its like taking the previously mentioned surgeon and then asking them to perform eye surgery from the moon with a laser pointer.

Uhh, how is a medical ninja, who doesn't have any close quarter combat training, better at close quarter combat than a taijutsu user? Sure, if they had Taijutsu as specialty than yes, but they would lose their surgical control of chakra when in the heat of the battle, especially when they are fighting head to head with a taijutsu or weaponry user.

Quote :: This all leads back to our weaponry user. Do you know what he has to do? Or really ANY shinobi who has a weapon in hand? Put chakra in an object where it literally doesn't matter where you put it, or how you put it, because its entirely a chunk of metal. Thats actually EASIER than using chakra any other way, though it admittedly has to clear your normal chakra systems, but I've already assumed this is a simple task while its unformed in your cells and the like. So in reality, putting chakra into a shuriken isn't as hard as putting it in your fist, fun fact there if ya really thought about it (or just read this post.)

I disagree to this statement. How can it be easier to put chakra in a weapon, something alien to your chakra, than molding it in your own body which they do from the second they join the Academy and train it for their entire life. Until an academy student reaches the level of a genin, he is only thought how to fight with a weapon, not how to simply put chakra in a shuriken.

Quote :: So every Genin on the site is capable of chakra control feats that are already far more ridiculous than they're given credit (forming clones out of thin air and moving at the speed of sound...definitely things you expect 10yr olds to be able to do...) but they are somehow dumb-founded when it comes to putting chakra into a rock. Or a kunai. Or an adult diaper (I don't judge your choice of weaponry.)

I don't remember seeing a genin here who can run at the speed of sound. If you have, please, point it out, and it will be removed immediately. Also, I would like to quote Enzo on something

Enzo wrote:: Remember when Naruto was doing his Fuuton training, and he could easily slice the chakra enhanced piece of paper with a simple touch; but when it came to the leaf it took him days worth of powerleveling just to get a small cut in it? Yeah, this is a very similar concept. In both instances, you're channeling chakra into a foreign object, to achieve a certain effect. The main difference is; Naruto was trying to use his chakra to cut the leaf; where as weaponry users are using the very same method to enhance the ability of their 'leaf'.

Quote :: (I literally lol'd at some of these posts that C Rank jutsu aren't lethal...please let me know how you can survive having even a D Rank taijutsu fist delivered to your spine. I wasn't aware that 'spinal strength' was determined by a jutsu rank check, I was pretty certain its treated as a 'spine' regardless of what rank hits it. Maybe I'm silly...Also, if you break someones neck, they die. Pretty much period. Or they're crippled for life, so ya might as well be dead because you can't be a ninja anymore if you're wheelchair bound...reroll)

Quote :: • E-rank: The lowest rank of jutsu. These lowly ranked type of techniques are taught at the Academy, thus every ninja knows them regardless of their specialty. Any other custom E-ranked techniques can’t do much damage nor bring much aid. Weapons and equipment of this rank are very basic and don’t contain any special attributes; some being even below average quality. An example of a E-ranked technique would be Bunshin no Jutsu (Clone Technique).

• D-rank: The second lowest rank of jutsu. These type of techniques are frequent partakers in a genin’s arsenal. Techniques of this rank usually do a small amount of damage or slightly less than average aid, so don’t expect a bone-breaking attack or ultimate health boost. Weapons and equipment of this rank are basic and have very little special attributes; nothing chakra conductive however. An example of a D-ranked technique would be Shunshin no Jutsu (Body Flicker Technique).

• C-rank: The average rank of jutsu. These type of techniques are also frequent partakers in a genin’s arsenal and take up a large amount of a chuunin’s. Techniques of this rank usually do an average amount of damage or moderate aid. Weapons and equipment of this rank are efficient but still hold nothing chakra conductive. An example of a C-ranked technique would be Kuchiyose no Jutsu (Summoning Technique).

• B-rank: The above average rank of jutsu. These types of techniques are frequent partakers in a chuunin’s arsenal and take up a large amount of a jounin’s. Techniques of this rank do about an above average amount of damage and a good amount of aid, so bone-breaking techniques and even bone-healing techniques are a possibility. Weapons and equipment of this rank are above efficient and hold chakra conductive abilities along with various things alike. An example of a B-ranked technique would be Doku Kiri (Poison Mist).

• A-rank: The elite rank of jutsu. These types of techniques are frequent partakers in a jounin’s arsenal and take up a large amount of a kage’s. Techniques of this rank are capable of killing an opponent or healing a fatal injury. Weapons and equipment of this rank are elite and hold chakra conductive abilities along with various things alike. An example of a A-ranked technique would be Chidori (Thousand Birds).

• S-rank: The highest rank of jutsu. These types of techniques are forbidden and only known to extremely skilled jounins, kages and the wickedest of missing ninja/organizations. Techniques of this rank are capable of killing, causing a large radius of destruction within an area, and even bringing the dead back to life. Weapons and equipment of this rank are beyond elite and hold seemingly unbelievable chakra conductive abilities along with various astounding things alike. An example of a S-ranked technique would be Edo Tensei (Resurrection to the Impure World).

So as you can see, only A+ ranks are actually capable of killing, though B rank could kill somebody, but not instantly. So no, a C rank on this site will never be able to kill anybody. If the technique says in the description that it can kill an opponent, you can bet your ass that the technique will be at least a B rank.

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to leave it to somebody else who has more knowledge than me on this matter. However, I really don't see the problem on why can't you just wait to get that chunnin rank, which can be achieved in a couple of weeks, and just channel chakra through your weapons as much as you like. You can already mold chakra in your body to make your swings faster and stronger if you give a decent description of the jutsu.