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Ruka
Age : 31
Posts : 1495
 |  Subject: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 6:02 pm | |
| Okay so I guess I‘m ready for another generic „It‘s not broken so let‘s not change it“ topic. The topic for today will be everything about physical stats and SCs. This is by no means something that I‘ve noticed recently (or so to say after some recent events). It is actually something I‘ve hated ever since I joined the site and still very much do because I feel it has nothing to do with the world this site is supposed to imitate.
I know it as a rule that some people might take it as a personal attack against them which it is not. I‘m not even hoping something about it to change, I‘m just trying to express my opinion about something I deem nonsensical given the purpose of this site and it‘s attempt to make a balanced and fun environment (especially with the newly cleared up revelation of it steering more into the combat direction). So any of you whose characters may possess the traits I try to question (in other words 90% of all site‘s characters basically) please do not treat this as an attack towards you or your characters as it is most definitely not the case.
So I am not a big fangirl of the way US does things with combat (go figure, having in mind I keep making these threads... -_-), one of my biggest problems (aside from Batmaning but I believe that was „adressed“) is the huge gap in killing potential between different character builds. I‘ve spoken to many people, most more intelligent and experienced in Rping than me, and none of them actually had satisfying answers as to what is done to balance that nor have proven to me it doesn't need to be balanced. It just gives me the impression that there is some sort of „meta“ to US as among the equal and creative ways you can make your character there are ways which are simply „more equal“ than others.
You might say that I am only bitching at the physical SCs because I myself roleplay with a character that has none of them and that I‘m just being biased, if that‘s your opinion then fine, feel free to leave a sarcastic and mocking comment below. Bias is a topic which is really hard to disprove (Staff should know), and it is far from the point I am trying to make here so I will not even try to prove that it might not be so. Just remember that my first character was also „Stealthy Speedy Swordsperson“ with evasion, speed and I think strength (I don‘t even remember at this point). In fact, the character I started out with (the one that never got approved) was also a character using Speed SCs and Strength SCs and was a very DBZ-like character.
It is commonly known that this site tones things down compared to Anime/Manga as a genin in the canon might do quite well if not beat most high ranking characters on the site. This is not a fault I‘m trying to argue against, it‘s actually quite a smart move as it somewhat balances the combat on the site from being too hard to manage and too unbalanced. Attempts are even made to make clans like Uchiha who would normally have tremendous skill gaps (because „Power of Love“ guys) just because they were born in the right family balanced. I‘d just like to have this point in mind for the clarity of what baffles me about other points I will try to adress.
Let‘s take a look at how enhanced physical stats are handled in the canon and how they are done in US. In the canon one cannot just become „the DBZ“, ninja‘s physical prowess is always limited by the limits of a human body. The only way in which those limits are bypassed are special stat boosting jutsu: Lightning Armor, KCM, Flying Raijin etc... The only canon characters I might claim actually have what seems to be above B rank speed and strength (by US standards) are base Lee and Gai. The thing is that it makes sense for them to be way physically above other characters, perhaps a bit less so without Gates, because they cannot do anything else. Taijutsu and honing their bodies is all they can do and it takes all of their training, all of their time to be like that. I 100% believe that if Gai also took his sweet time to train his A rank elemental ninjutsu he would not be nearly as physically powerful and fast even in his base form.
What I‘m trying to demonstrate is that in most cases our site‘s „Speedy Stealthy DBZ“ guys surpass the skills of Anime/Manga characters which goes against the precedent. Ninjutsu/Fuuinjutsu/Medical/Genjutsu users have to tolerate being weaker and less skilled than the canon characters while anyone with bunch of DBZ SCs can enjoy being as fast and powerful as Lee or Gai with several gates open while also being able to access everything the oppressed specs can do. For this reason there is logically absolutely no reason to NOT be a DBZ character and take taijutsu or weaponry to one‘s skillset.
My problem with that is not only that it limits creativity (that‘s actually quite a lot of what some US‘s mechanics do) but the reason why it limits it. It must be done to keep your character alive and relevant when roleplaying with other people (contrary to popular belief, roleplaying together with or against a DBZ character is not as fun as one might believe, it actually feels a lot like a crossover between two different universes). One is forced to build their character in a specific way to stay relevant which is what most people would want, no one wants to be Mr.Satan or Yamcha of the site (except me I suppose... -_-) and so they must build their character in a way that they stay relevant which is cram as much DBZ SCs into their app as possible.
Making DBZ SCs (yes I‘m calling them that from now on forever and ever because that is what they are, no need to hide it anymore) into stat boosters might help a little bit by making them more accessible ergo allowing more freedom when building one‘s character. A fuuinjutsu or genjutsu user might use their own version of stat boosting jutsu and not get absolutely speedblitzed but taijutsu users would still stay relevant because they would possess higher martial arts prowess. They would still wreck special ninja shit (forgive me the rude expression) up close but not because they move faster than a human can react but because they simply are more skilled in that sort of fighting situation. Also it would make people use chakra for their DBZ moves which would somewhat limit the „I‘ve been DBZing for 2 pages of posts but I don‘t feel fatigued just yet“ syndrome and help the writers better imagine the level of fatigue their character would be going through.
Now to talk about the „drawbacks“ of the DBZ SCs as well as why they are not only broken but also do not make much sense according to site‘s own explanations (according to me at least). First let‘s examine a simple situation, a character named John (who is an idiot and does not bother building his character with only surviving DBZ characters in mind and tries to be creative with his character) fights a character named Peter (who is a smart fellow and whores out those amazing DBZ SCs).
- Combat:
Peter begins the fight (because he has speed, only logical to assume he moves first), he has S rank Speed aptly named „Lightning Speed“ he uses it to a) charge forward with his blade pointed straight b) charges with a short burst and activates this:
Name: Dragon’s Rage
Rank: S
Type: Taijutsu
Range: Close (0-5m)
Element: N/A
Requirements: Speed/Evasiveness
Description: The user utilizes chakra to augment the power of their thighs and legs to deliver an extremely powerful round house kick that has almost no start up. Even dojutsu users will find this technique extremely hard to read as the twist of the users bodies motion is extremely fast. The damage done by this technique can easily break bone and destroy muscle as the chakra used to move the body is transferred into the foot upon strike. Not only is the technique hard to read due to its speed, it is capable of knocking a person a considerable distance back, up to fifteen meters. If an opponent collides with an object or is stopped around or before five meters of traveling, they become stunned and take more damage from the collision for a single post.
Chakra Cost: 35
Or a similar technique which has little to no start-up, it might even be a D-C ranked taijutsu technique if one has DBZ Strength SC so no need to feel like I‘m attacking the owner of this technique specifically. Any technique with quick or no start-up will do. The only reason I used THIS jutsu is to demonstrate that jutsu with little to no start up exist.
Now it is interesting to consider what are John‘s options. He basically has two options: a) Roll over and get incapacitated and unable to fight, b) Try to write up a way for his character to react and get accused of godmodding and daring to react to something clearly above human reaction time and having the wrath of Staff fall on his shoulders making him feel guilty of a crime of not following the „meta“ and trying not to die. That is because both techniques ( Speed + Zero Start Up no Jutsu) are above normal reaction time, reaction time is something which cannot be boosted (many have tried), only acquired with Keen Perception SC. Sadly while it would provide John with a way to see his impending doom, his body would be too slow to react in time anyways.
Conclusion: The specific combination (also some other combo like DBZ Speed and Black Ops Stealth or DBZ Str + Endurance + Speed (Noticed a trend yet?)) allows a character to decide over life and death of a character who is stupid enough not to offer half of his character build for surviving this exact combination. To survive it it would require to have all of the following: Taijutsu or Weaponry as a spec + Keen Perception SC + Probably the highest rank Evasion SC + Some amount of Speed SC to actually manage to move in time. That is basically a whole character. Just so one could survive and not get speedblitzed.
I am well aware that the DBZ SCs have weaknesses and „drawbacks“, and trust me, I‘ve heard „Well it‘s your fault for not writting yourself out, you just suck“ argument many times before when I tried to bring this up to the people I respect. The consensus we‘ve reached was that it‘s basically my fault not starting the combat by setting up traps everywhere on the field before the battle or not possessing the afformentioned SCs to not get speedblitzed by a DBZ character in Naruto World. Well after hearing this „You just suck as a writer“ argument from a person I considered way too mature for such a reply for one time too many (of course that guy had a character with Speed and Evasion SCs... Duh...) I‘ve tried to figure out just what sorts of measures should be taken to „not suck“.
Obviously one would have to exploit the draw backs of the speedy or strong character‘s SC‘s. That is of course if they KNOW of these abilities like they‘ve met this person or heard of them IC. Also there is simply no way for the casual „Just throw something in their way and stop them“ to happen because by the time you blink and move your hand behind you to pull something out there is a foot in your face and you are flying backwards into a wall, for now unaware that all of your bones are broken and this DBZ character will now decide over the fate of your character. So basically the only ways to exploit the drawbacks of the Speed SC (if you are a fool and are not building your character THAT ONE SPECIFIC WAY) are prior preparation or battlefield modification. IMO that is WAY too excessive to compensate just one SC.
MY SUGGESTION: Remove the DBZ SCs entirely, compensate it to the people by giving them AF equal to the rank of their SCs as if it was a jutsu being refunded and add SCs similar to the following to compensate it (just a couple of suggestions, additional SCs with some creative uses may be added):
1) Skilled Martial Artist (multiple ranks of superiority in close combat, only accessible to Taijutsu users, does not equal a win in H2H but improves the speed of the punching (PLEASE DON‘T GO OVERBOARD WITH THIS), allows more fluid and faster blocks using one‘s hands, gives the ability to catch long range projectiles and weapons more easily, allows the user easily combat multiple opponents H2H)
2) Skilled Swordsperson (had a low ranking version of this SC, basically the same as the above except using swords, if you want a specific version please consult my previous character Yoruma Hisako)
3) High Pain Tolerance (speaks for itself)
4) Fast on their Feet (similar to the Speed SC except it only grants slight advantage of speed in situations such as fleeing the enemy or chasing them down, PLEASE DON‘T GO OVERBOARD WITH THIS and let the user speedblitz their enemy is all situations as it is now, the current speed SC is WAY too flexible and needs some serious consideration).
Also: Pliz Staff, Sensory so broken, nerf it plis... 
Let the sarcastic and mocking comments begin... |
|   | | Chris
Age : 28
Posts : 3145
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 8:15 pm | |
| I think I have made a topic about the site more or less forcing you to pick Tai or Wep before, but regardless, I think you will find little support for nerfing SCs, if you target just Physical ones. As the site currently stands, Taijutsu is rather useless and Weaponry only becomes respectable around A Rank; their main use is to gain the Physical SCs (and you may disagree, but I do think that's why most players choose them). Strong Physical SCs are the selling factor of both these Specialties.
It would probably be more ideal to overhaul how Taijutsu and Weaponry works, and then nerf down the SCs. I'm not really sure how you would ideally go about this and it is really a topic that deserves its own thread.
- In hindsight, I went somewhat off topic, so treat this as optional reading:
I think the problem is that SCs are, to a degree, fundamentally flawed. Maybe not so much the non-Physical ones. The problem I have always found, and a lot of people still disagree with me, is how base "stats" are calculated.
It seems that most people favour the idea that if you take away all the SCs, a Genin is slower, less durable, less evasive and weaker than a Chuunin, who again is all that when compared to a Jounin and so forth.
This argument is based on the idea that when you rank up, supposedly because your chakra goes up and you can learn higher rank techniques, that naturally must mean that your physical capabilities have also increased. I will agree that this does make some sense. But I think the logic behind the former is simply that as you grow more experienced, using chakra frequently and furthering your skills in whichever field, your chakra capacity increases naturally, as does your ability to experiment with and learn new, harder techniques.
This doesn't really translate to physical capabilities. If your character specializes in neither Tai or Wep, it makes no sense for them to naturally become more physically able. For all intents and purpose they remain more or less stationary. In fact, you could make an argument that characters growing up lose speed (taller people are generally slower) and gain strength (greater body mass, larger fists xD). Of course if the char has Tai or Wep, they would show their increased mastery of their body by ranking up their Physical SCs.
Therefore I don't think it makes sense to assume that Rank determines physical capabilities.
This becomes problematic when you factor the SCs back into the mix.
People often compound this belief with SCs, which creates vague results. Some members believe and have RPed to give effect to the fact that a Jounin is faster than a Genin even when the Genin has his C-Rank Speed SC and the Jounin has no such SC, at any rank.
Now would a Jounin with no Speed be faster than a Chuunin with B Rank Speed? What about a Kage with no Speed vs a Chuunin with B Rank Speed?
It's just far easier (admittedly, maybe uncomfortable for higher ranked players) to judge all ranks as having the same physical capabilities, barring age. Thus a Genin could be faster than a Kage.
Otherwise how do you even measure the difference between an S rank Speed Kage and a C Rank Speed Genin?
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| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 8:49 pm | |
| TLDR @ BOTTOM
First off, the physical SC's are the strongest special characteristics on this site hands down. When I set out to build Shinjin, I wanted him to be an elite, stealthy, speedy character that was basically an assassin. His job was to assassinate someone before they had the chance to do anything about it.
Essentially I wanted to find all ways that I could to reduce counter play against me if I got the drop on you. "What does an assassin do?" I just happen to be an assassin on a site full of mages. This is also why my strongest counter is Meiko. Shinjin can never assassinate a fighter type. Meiko can just wreck me for free.
Shinjin is more old school Rengar than he is any other assassin. More like, he's Sword of the Divine Rengar. The question is, "Why would you build such an asshole character Faker? What the fuck are you thinking?" The thing is, being pretty much new to this site, I didn't know people didn't take the strongest stuff and put them on their characters. You can't blame me for using what's there, that's free. You might be able to blame me for trying to find all the broken things, but if we make a Riot comparison then you have to say everyone that used OP Black Cleaver are also jerks and assholes.
I just want to say this, you cannot hate anyone for using precedents and free things set by the game. At the end of the day, this is a game. If Riot Games can make huge fuck ups to their game, people have to understand that a little site on the interwebs called Ultimate Shinobi can also make huge fucks ups and not properly balance their game. There is no such thing as perfect balance.
The problem with site is that the physical SC's need to be strong to buff Tai and Weaponry characters. We talk about batmaning a lot, but problem for anyone who doesn't have ninjutsu is that they can never get into range. That's why the physical SC's are so strong, to help them get into range.
But, the most OP specialty on this site is ninjutsu and I'm going to prove it.
Let's take a look at all the characters who are A-S Rank who possess Ninjutsu.
Ms. Money
Seika
Yours Truly
The only one who doesn't is Alyasha
Out of four, 3 take ninjutsu. That's 75%!!! Look at Konoha
Hokage
Mana
Meiko
Kyousuu
Kiyomi
80% of Konoha's strong guys take ninjutsu. Look at Kumo.
Raikage
Moku
Hiruzen
Hira
Gouka
100% The numbers speak for themselves. Ninjutsu is the strongest Specialty anyone can pick. It's because it offers you so much with so little drawbacks. Ninjutsu is also helped out by SC's such as The No Seals Tree. Not only does No Seals stack (one handed STACKS with blurred), you also get C ranks up to A ranks that you can do without seals, helping you do other things while using techniques or surprise your opponent if played correctly.
So how can we reduce the prevalence of both these strong categories? Ninjutsu is Top Tier when picking specialties (people rarely start without ninjutsu) and Physical SC's are also Top Tier. When you're a taijutsu guy, lets say you're a Kaguya. You excell in close combat. On this site, when you're fighting a tai person, at the start of the battle you will always attempt to use your poke to avoid them. You want them to be as far away from you as possible. That's natural. It's just like melee vs ranged in any game. In Skyrim if you're a Heavy Armor 2 handed guy, and you go up against a mage, the mage is ALWAYS going to run away from you while casting spells. The mage understands that if the 2 Handed Dragonbone Armor guy gets in to close range he will die.
The problem with this is, is that on US taijutsu isn't free. Techniques like Leaf Whirlwind and etc that don't manipulate chakra cost chakra, and thus nerf tai users. In order to nerf the physical SC's, taijutsu attacks that do not manipulate chakra need to cost 0 chakra. (Or an extremely low amount)
Also, enhanced chakra capacity and ninjutsu master SC's and No Seals tree make it nigh impossible for taijutsu users to avoid being shoved back. If you're a fully tai user (Kaguya) how are you gonna get in close range if someone gets: a larger than average supply, 40% reduced cost on ninjutsu, 50% reduced cost on single element jutsu, no seals techniques or blurred seals techniques.
How can someone playing taijutsu ever get into close range? They cannot. Especially if you take ninjutsu and taijutsu together. You can kite out taijutsu opponents forever and then when they do get in range you can kick them in the face.
If the taijutsu physical SC's get nerfed, then No Seals needs to go away. It's too strong and keeps people from picking taijutsu users because they never get to attack. When's the last time on this site, someone got physically punched by someone starting at like 10m? In real combat? Does this site even have swordsman or taijutsu type characters that specialize in only one area of combat? Do Rock Lee types exist?
The problem is clear taking nin/tai is OP. But the site doesn't allow for people to use Hyuuga, or Kaguya or Rock Lee types (people that specialise in being close and do nohting else) to do anything. You can't be a taijutsu only type of guy. So you circumvent that weakness by just picking something else and reducing the costs.
TLDR: We can't just nerf taijutsu SC's because they help Taijutsu users get into range to do their thing. We can't continue to ignore that ninjutsu has a plethora of stackable options in the special characteristics tree, while taijutsu users have to loose chakra for techniques that shouldn't cost. Ruka is right about the physical SC's being so strong, but if they weren't so strong tai users wouldn't be able to do anything. The only thing that is too op right now is the combination of taijutsu and ninjutsu. And if we were to fix that, the entire specialty and SC system would need a total overhaul. |
| | | | Ruka
Age : 31
Posts : 1495
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 9:24 pm | |
| @Faker
I really get your point and I don't accuse anyone of anything. My one problem is with what you've said: Range
(I don't play LoL and I'm forced to speak with LoL references to counter yours so I'm really sorry if I mess it up).
Let's say that Taijutsu and Ninjutsu ninja have same killing potential (C rank Raiton compared to C rank Wep says "WUUUUT!?"). Let's say that "range" is the only drawback of a "Mage" facing off against an "Assasin".
Imagine in your LoL world that 5 Xeraths face off against a Zed who constantly has his ult up, like 0 sec CD at level 1. That is essentially the situation here. There IS no range when we're talking about S ranks because range is closed BEFORE anyone can react and not get called out. Even if they can SEE the attack coming with "Keen Perception" they can never react on what they see unless they also possess a ton of other stuff (and "so just get that other stuff" is not a viable response, you don't build 4 Phantom Dancers on a Xerath just so you can outrun that pesky Graves and still be treated as a mage)
On a roleplaying site you're supposed to be able to build anything you want while also being able to in some way be just as potent as the other specs in some areas. That doesn't mean that you're supposed to beat a Taijutsu spec H2H, just that you're supposed to be able to take out as many guys as a Taijutsu spec using your own methods. ATM that is simply not the case. Ninjutsu techniques are allowed at B rank speed (at best without having them dumbed down in case of power) while taijutsu specs just dash around kicking people's faces in and murdering them before even reaction time sets in.
I only have one major fault with your argument. You can't just say that because someone has something it is broken. Of course ninja will have ninjutsu, IT'S IN THE NAME. Of course a champion in LoL will at some point buy boots, that doesn't mean that boots are OP and need to get nerfed. Now if there were boots that granted you 80 AD or reduced the cooldown of your Flash to 2 seconds then you have a problem.
In essence what are "Mages" supposed to do? Deal damage. Compare C rank weaponry of a "Bruiser" with C rank DBZ SCs and C rank Raiton of a "Mage". What you'll get is that the guy with C rank has killing potential at C rank while C rank Raiton does nothing. And I do not exagerate, it's annoyance tier at best. You have to RP up to A rank before you're even allowed to kill with ninjutsu and at that time even a "Tank" with DBZ SCs can rush you down before you can utilize the "range" as a disadvantage.
To sum it up: Range is not a disadvantage if the cooldown of your "Flash" is pretty much 1 sec. |
| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 9:56 pm | |
| Thing is, the S Rank Speed is not a blink, it requires time to ramp up. There is no way someone can blitz you at full S rank speed unless they started off way back. They would need to be a considerable distance away from you. Even then, if someone is blitzing you with that speed they can only move at a straight line. The SC says this.
- Flash Speed wrote:
- b]Trade Off:[/b] While users of this characteristic are indeed fast, such speed comes at a price; when hitting their top speed, they can only move in straight lines, and require significant room to come to a full stop. Reckless users may find themselves plastered into a wall more often than not. Furthermore, their speed is so great, that users have just as much difficulty as their foes in actually seeing their movement. As such, users generally find it necessary to slow down when outright attacking, to ascertain their attack is actually heading towards the right target.
Your comparison is kinda off (no offense!) because Zed's is a untargetable/invulernable dash. S Rank Speed is more akin to Sions ulti.
S rank speed, the blur does not happen instantly and it has never said that. Once you reach your top speed you can only move in a linear fashion and you are at a blur. All you have to do at that point is throw out a C rank fire ball and if your opponent is always charging at you, you will always hit them.
http://cdn.leagueoflegends.com/champion-abilities/videos/mp4/0014_05.mp4
It is more like Sion's ult than anything. It will never be, nor will be instant at any point.
S Rank Speed does not work like this
http://cdn.leagueoflegends.com/champion-abilities/videos/mp4/0238_05.mp4
The difference between those two is staggeringly high, and nothing on this site compares S Rank speed to zed.
@Chris
Chris has a huge point, taijutsu and weaponry need work, so people can get in and do their stuff. You shouldn't get free stats per rank, but theres no rules or say so on this. It's implied that a C Rank genin with speed is about as fast as a Chuunin without it, which is kinda dumb. If you don't take speed, you shoudln't have it no matter what.
And just because "ninja" and ninjutsu are popular because it's in the name doesn't mean Lee types or Hyuuga types should suffer. But on this site they do. If Ninjutsu can have all the fun SC's and the variety, why can't Lee types get access to enhance their bodies? They can't. All those techniques are banned. |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Wed 24 Dec 2014, 10:36 pm | |
| #BuffTaijutsu2015
#2015:TheYearOfTheFist
#ReleaseTheGates
#MaybeThisDebateWouldHaveMoreMeritIfPeopleFoughtMoreAndDidn'tFindWaysToConstantlyBitch
#HokageSucks
#KillShin
#LetTheBodiesHitTheFloor |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 1:27 am | |
| | -Removed for breaking rules- |
| | | | Ruka
Age : 31
Posts : 1495
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 3:21 am | |
| - Yusuke wrote:
- Removed
Wow, what a great example of "Forum Assistance", I certainly feel assisted now!
And here I thought that after all this time I've spent on this site giving a shit I deserved at least enough respect to have people at least read what I have to say before spitting up whatever comes in mind. Apparently my opinion isn't even worth that much.
I guess if people will just write whatever comes to their minds without bothering to read the opening post this topic can be solved. I was just trying to help by pointing out something which was very clearly out of place.
I'm done trying to help, I know I've said that before, but really, I'm just done with all of this. |
| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 3:30 am | |
| His post has just been removed for insults.
Though he doesn't know how to word it without insulting he still had a point.
It's hard to make claims that something is overpowered with the lack of combat on the site. First this was a "no combat" site now people seem to care about it. Things need to be fixed, but it's the holidays and that won't happen instantly.
It's not just one or two things that are overpowered on this site, a lot of issues exist. But as per your description of speed being some blink or flash, that is wrong by per definition of the SC itself. It's not a blink, nor is anyone roleplaying it like it is one.
If you think anyone is using the Speed SC in that manner, PM Alex or Trey. |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 4:28 am | |
| So, let my offer my heartfelt apology. I did not mean for you to take what I said as personally as you evidently did, and I didn't mean to go so far overboard that the moderators deemed my comments more damaging than helpful. That wasn't my intent. I go for humor and I use directness to hammer home points. That's why I write like that.
My apology is sincere, but it doesn't detract from any of the points I made.
"I know it as a rule that some people might take it as a personal attack against them which it is not. I‘m not even hoping something about it to change,"
You obviously do want something to change. This post and your suggestions are proof of that. However, you don't cite any in character evidence for a need to change. You have not been wronged by these SCs. To my knowledge, no one plays these traits how you claim people do. The issue here is with your interpretation of these rules, and they shouldn't be changed based on one person's interpretation -- an interpretation I would argue is incorrect.
If people can be so destroyed by these "DBZ traits," as you facetiously call them, where is the evidence? And, were these people defeated because the SC is truly overpowered or because they designed an inept character incapable of dealing with certain threats? It's not the system's responsibility to make your character well-rounded, it's the players.
Any attack on your character from me was not aimed at making you feel small, but at discouraging future claims like these. Without specific instances of repeated abuses from multiple players, we can't determine that the SC itself is the problem.
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| | | | Kiseki
Posts : 1216
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 4:32 am | |
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| | | | Hiruzen
Age : 32
Posts : 1178
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 10:38 pm | |
| Personally, I think things should just be toned down.
I mean, we have people that use Ninjutsu, sure, because Ninjutsu is by far the most OP thing on the site #Sarcasm. If you are someone who uses S ranked speed and A ranked agility + strength, fill it in with a couple of stealth SC's, you can kill anyone and no one can do a bloody thing against you. First of all, you'd be too fast and have an SC in place that pretty much hides you in plain sight. If you are using a high agility, you can just dodge it in case someone is to actually see you while your strength will basically allow you to break a spine with a punch.
I always hear how Ninjutsu is one of the most powerful things on US, but lets not forget that Ninjutsu in the Narutoverse is the very basis of everything. If you want to become a good Ninjutsu user, you'd need things like Quick Seals, Ninjutsu Mastery and the Large Chakra Pool SC. Does that make you into a strong shinobi? yes it does, but you still don't mean anything to someone who has the Flash Speed SC unless you took Sensory and Keen Perception as a means of countering that single SC. In comparison, a Ninjutsu user would need five SC's to counter someone built like an Assassin. Does this mean that a person who uses mainly physical stuff is better by default? no, but it does mean that they have a much less hard time fighting than someone built like a Ninjutsu master.
Since I saw a link to my character, I would like to explain that the way my Hokage was built was basically to have a high endurance and last long in a fight while having plenty of chakra and masteries to help him take down an enemy before he eventually bites the dust. Would my Hokage stand a chance against an Assassin? no way, he does not have Sensory so he would have no way of countering it at all without Metagaming one thing or another.I can keep going on and on about all of this, but I sincerely believe that the people claiming Ninjutsu is so much more powerful than Taijutsu has things in reverse, because it was proven several times that someone who is both fast and has stealth can pretty much do anything they want on US and get away with it because they are both ridiculous SC's.
#Inb4CreativityKillPosts |
| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 10:48 pm | |
| Because this is directed at me, how about you or someone actually fight me OOC to see how it works?
If you establish a range that we see each other then I cant just run up and kill you for free.
You do not need five sc's to counter me. You need your mind and thats it.
I'm sick of you and everyone else arguing about my character that I built from the ground up with things on the site that anyone can get.
You guys have hated me since before my affliction for doing things that anyone can do. We can get this over with, have a fight so I can show you that my character isn't as strong as you think it is, and have the entire site watch so this can be over.
Ninjutsu is the strongest specialty and Taijutsu has the strongest physical SC's hands down. I will show you why if you fight me.
This is always been about combat, that people can't fight with my combination of SC's and specs. But yet, I've never fought any of you. I'm just extremely threatening. |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 10:53 pm | |
| “Would my Hokage stand a chance against an Assassin? no way, he does not have Sensory so he would have no way of countering it at all without Metagaming one thing or another.”
That’s your fault, though. You designed your character from scratch and left a gaping hole in him. It’s not the system’s fault.
Why didn’t you take sensory? Why don’t you summon dogs, like Kakashi does? Why didn’t you make any effort at developing a counter to these things instead of just complaining that you’re powerless? I don’t understand how anyone here can honestly say that speed is OP when the Hokage can literally summon a wooden dragon he has telekinetic control over. That’s absurd.
It’s insulting to me when people say ‘Well, I just can’t beat X because he has these SC,’. That’s lazy. That’s easy. That’s you giving up. It’s ludicrous to suggest that a speedy/stealth character is unbeatable when they’ve been destroyed time and time again – Kakashi beat bloody Zabuza in the very beginning of the manga, and he couldn’t even SEE him! He beat him because he had ingenuity and had developed a wide array of abilities. And before anyone calls Sharingan BS, his summoning contract has nothing to do with his eyes.
If you didn’t take speed or stealth or Taijutsu into account when you were designing your character, it’s not the system’s fault. I understand your concern, but aren’t concerns over your building-sized dragon valid too? Arent concerns over the fact Senjus can get OUTRAGEOUSLY powerful valid? The sheer scale of what you’re able to do is terrifying.
But I’m not here complaining that it should be nerfed, because it shouldn’t be. It’s part of the game, it’s something I have to plan about if I ever fight you. It’s what makes this place fun.
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| | | | Hiruzen
Age : 32
Posts : 1178
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:10 pm | |
| Because, like I told you, I made my character to be durable, have a lot of chakra and several masteries within the field to make him into a potent Mokuton user and Healer. That would have severely been weakened if I had taken on Sensory. I have no summons because I have not even had this character for a weak and instantly am required to stop an invader that has had his character for several months and had many chances at developing both the personality and the fighting style behind it, so don't make such ridiculous comparisons.
And to be honest, I called this when I said #Inb4CreativityKillPosts.
What I mean with this is that "Unless you take these SC's, there is nothing you can do because this is fair". That said, you're going to have to get used to things like that Yusuke, because unless you have a certain set of SC's, things like Speed and Stealth will pretty much screw you over simply because they can. As someone who used Flash Speed, I can honestly say that moving like the Flash is not really fair while having something like Stealth on top of it is just plain bullshit. Separately, there really is no problem with either one of them, but one who moves as fast as the wind should simply not be able to keep up their stealth. Which brings me to the slight nerf I had in mind, which is basically to make it so that when people move at high speeds, they would lose their stealth. It's really no more than fair, especially since the counter I get for things like these is always "I can do it because the site allows it so it is not my fault". That said, I can already tell that this won't be seeing the light of day because people don't want it to change.
- Faker wrote:
- I'm sick of you and everyone else arguing about my character that I built from the ground up with things on the site that anyone can get.
Oh, you mean like the character that I had for over two years that get torn apart? Don't come up to me with this kind of thing and expect sympathy, you still have your character in it's bloody prime, so those sob stories honestly do not affect me. Lets just stick to what happens in this thread. Also, don't get high and mighty. Mister "Blows up shit and runs before people can do something about it because I have Goku Speed, Stealth and Invisibility". You may be the only person who has the combination of these two things at the moment, but there are more people on the site than just you and me, and i'd rather see things like this fixed when it is still a single person using it as opposed to three or four people as that would just make the problem bigger than it has to be.
Keep in mind that I am following up on what Ruka said about how DBZ-speed type characters can pretty much screw over those that do not have something like evasiveness, perception and sensory to counter it. Ninjutsu can be countered by a wide array of things, and I get how Taijutsu can too, but if someone moves like the flash and has the ability to maintain their stealth is just crappy. A lot of our SC's have drawbacks and limitations, so I vote that stealth can not be used when someone is simply running around with high speed.
Ruka also claimed that this has nothing to do with you Yosh, but you just keep making it about you and draw the thread away from the actual thing at hand, which is something every single FA thread on US just does. It makes it about one person, just like how Yusuke almost made it about the Hokage when he merely acted as an example to help out with Ruka's case. It's not meant to be a personal attack because I never made this thread, I just responded to it because someone keeps making it about himself.
Now if we could actually talk about the Stealth and the Speed SC, as well as the other S ranked things such as the strength to break boulders by poking it with your thumb and moving like a blur (doesn't matter how one moves, a blur is a blur), that would be great. |
| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:15 pm | |
| No I didn't. I never made this about me
Ruka used a jutsu that I created. She made this about me.
You talk about a person that you can't catch because he's extremely stealthy and fast, and that you coudln't do anything with your Kage.
YOU made this about me.
I initally came here telling you that speed SC's are OP. I agree with that. But I want the site to agree that ninjutsu is strong not just because it's "naruto" but that SC's like no seals and 50% reduction are OP.
You cannot cherry pick Shin being OP without looking at why his entire kit is set up that way. Shin gets to move around, be hard to notice and he gets like 40% reduced cost on ninjutsu while also getting 50% reduced cost on elemental ninjutsu, while also getting to do jutsu with No Seals.
Ninjutsu and Taijutsu together are OP. It's not just "speed" its everything else as well.
Last edited by Faker on Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:19 pm | |
|
'What I mean with this is that "Unless you take these SC's, there is nothing you can do because this is fair"'
You don't have to take speed to beat speed. You have to come up with counters, though. I understand that you wanted to make your character a certain way. That's fine. But if you make them with built in weaknesses, you can't complain about the fact that you have weaknesses. That's ridiculous. This is like you wanting to make a really short character and then complaining because another character is taller than you.
Stealth isn't broken either. You can detect people who have stealth, and you don't need sensory for it. There are so many options it's outrageous. Summon people, actually use that Keen Perception trait you put on your guy, change the battlefield to suit your advantages, hide yourself, use some of those gigantic bloody attacks you have that annihilate everything around you. The fact not everyone has to be the same is why Naruto is fun. You can get creative with this, but instead you're stuck on the notion that it's impossible for you to overcome something.
By your logic, Naruto v Sasuke shouldn't be a thing. Regardless of Naruto's jutsus, the fact Sasuke's faster than Naruto means there's not even a fight there. Which isn't true.
By your logic, Deidara v Sasuke shouldn't be a thing. Regardless of Deidara's jutsus and strategy, the fact Sasuke's faster than Deidara means he's going to kill him INSTANTLY. Which isn't true.
By your logic, Guy v Kisame shouldn't be a thing. Guy shouldn't have even needed to open his gates -- he should have just been able to blitz Kisame and kill him in one hit. Right. That's totally what happened.
By your logic, as soon as Lee dropped his weights, he should have insta-killed Gaara. Yeah, that's totally how I remember that fight going down.
By your logic, Kiba murders Naruto as soon as their fight begins.
By your logic, Kakashi and Obito get absolutely murdered by those Iwa ninja who had Meisaigakure no Jutsu.
By your logic, Zabuza is the strongest character in all of Naruto.
By your logic-- does this need to continue? The canon is ripe with examples of slower characters beating faster characters via tactics and trickery. The canon is ripe with stealthy characters being overcome.
Why can't you do the same? What is stopping you from going 'Hm, there are fast people here. I should probably come up with a way to deal with that,' or 'Hm, there are sneaky people here. I should probably come up with a way to deal with that,'?
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| | | | Ruka
Age : 31
Posts : 1495
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:20 pm | |
| I guess it's absolutely impossible to have a productive topic on this site without it devolving into a pitiful array of personal attacks, accusations, blatant ignorances of statements made and just all around assaulting of the side which disagrees with one's own side. Sadly this topic brought me a lot of realizations about this site as a whole and its community and I ask one more time for someone to close this topic and consider it "Solved"
I also strongly advise members of the site to refrain from attempting to help this site as apparently any attempts to help the site will result in one being accused of pretty much everything negative since WWII. Apparently I am now a hateful and bullying member who has nothing better to do with her life but try to make life of someone she doesn't even know or has any reason to hate a living Hell. That was said by a Staff Member, one I respected a great deal at that.
I suggest serious consideration of leaving Forum Assistance with only one function - to answer questions from now on. I have seen very clearly that suggestions are very much unwanted all that attempts to produce a productive topic and discuss something which may or may not be productive to the site will only cause a toxic swamp of filth to form.
I apologize for trying to raise a suggestion, I apologize for trying to question something that is core concept of this site, I apologize for "hating" and "bullying" Iza since before he had his affliction and I also most certainly apologize for deaths of all those poor Jews during the holocaust and those puppies I so violently murdered by trying to make a topic which in no way whatsoever contradicts the function of this forum's section.
That being said I no longer want to be a part of a site which punishes attempts to question or simply discuss some of its parts with such toxicity and so blatantly ignores the facts stated in the opening post of a Forum Assistance topic.
PS: If you ever bothered to read my post, Iza, you would've noticed my reason of using your jutsu. It wasn't to attack you in any way (I can't believe I have to repeat this AGAIN, someone count how many times I've said this already UGH!!!). It was simply to prove that jutsu with little to no start up time at close distance exist on this site and are a precedent which can be used when arguing about approval of a similar technique. If you bothered to read what was said, I claimed that ANY technique which worked similar to that of yours would've sufficed.
That being said, consider this my departure topic and PLEASE SOLVE THIS. |
| | | | Hiruzen
Age : 32
Posts : 1178
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:23 pm | |
| BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW!
Ruka did not made this thread because she wanted to kick you in the dick, she made it because some of the things you did became possible because the site allows it. US changes so much every month, yet things like these never really do, even though there are people that actually care enough about the place to make FA threads about them. Having things apart from one another is fine, but the moment you start combining things like this, you're just inviting problems. There really is no combination of SC's that is as ridiculously overpowered as mixing Max:Speed with the highest possible form of Stealth because it literally forces people to pick several SC's that they had not been planning on getting for the sake of being able to survive an encounter with a Speed/Stealth character. Which is also why I said that it kills creativity when you force people to get a bunch of SC's they might not even want because it is the only way of stopping the OP-Combo.
Also Yusuke, stop bringing in things that happened in the Manga or the Anime, they do not apply here. We have had this conversation on the Cbox, so it is about time you understood that by now.
Aside from this, I would like to refer to Ruka's last post. |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:27 pm | |
| "I guess it's absolutely impossible to have a productive topic on this site without it devolving into a pitiful array of personal attacks, accusations, blatant ignorances of statements made and just all around assaulting of the side which disagrees with one's own side."
That's not at all what's happening. We're trying to be productive and point out why your concerns surrounding the Speed SC are invalid. You can address our concerns and provide rebuttals, or you can say that anyone who disagrees with you is assaulting you, which we're not. No one is out to get you.
Vergil, wat? Stop bringing up the source material that this entire place is based off of? How does that make sense? I'm trying to use evidence to help you. I'm trying to point out the fact that speed + stealth isn't unstoppable. If Shin ran around claiming he was an unstoppable god, I would be the first to point out that he's an idiot and can get shanked just as easily as anyone else. I'm utilizing examples to elucidate the fact that he is not unstoppable, that speed is not overpowered, and that stealth can be overcome. Shin is no stronger than any other comparatively ranked character on paper.
"Which is also why I said that it kills creativity when you force people to get a bunch of SC's they might not even want because it is the only way of stopping the OP-Combo."
What is a bunch of SCs? You don't need any SCs. Grab a summoning contract. That's a jutsu, and it costs you nothing other than some AF you have lying around and five minutes writing up a contract in the request area. Again, see my previous comment about how you can't make a short character and complain when other people are taller than you. If you don't ever address weaknesses, you can't be upset when you have weaknesses. |
| | | | Hiruzen
Age : 32
Posts : 1178
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:29 pm | |
| | I am honestly not even going to dignify that with a proper response. If you had any idea as to how things on US functioned, you would not have said it and expected anyone to reply to it. |
| | | | Yusuke
Posts : 358
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:31 pm | |
| "I am honestly not even going to dignify that with a post."
Shutting yourself down doesn't solve anything, dude. You can't expect anyone to share your viewpoint if you refuse to engage in rational debate with them.
"If you had any idea as to how things on US functioned, you would not have said it and expected anyone to reply to it."
Where am I wrong, exactly? What have I said that isn't true? Which of my examples aren't pertinent, or possible to accomplish via US systems? |
| | | | Faker
Posts : 757
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:37 pm | |
| Have you seen Nintai on MsMoney?
Do you want to know what Travis's S Rank is gonna look like? Because he has stealth too.
I offered to change shin a million times and I'm down with nerfing all the SC's I have, and if they're too nerfed and Shin doesn't work I want the same thing you got - a chance to make a better character. I'm not just into assassins. My first character was a Kabuto type, I'd go back to being a medical ninja in a heart beat if I am allowed.
But just like I fought for you to get to make a new Hokage in place of your old one getting nuked, I feel you need to let me do the same thing.
Once you're fine with that, we can be best friends. I worked my character from the ground up, just like you did. So if i get nerfed to hell then I want the chance to redo it. It's not my fault the staff (way before my time, didn't change those Sc's) Like I told you all, I showed them every single broken thing on the site. And the admins have some mysterious plan for it.
There is a huge thread that me and Kelcie worked on highlighting issues right now (at least minor ones) that are all ready to go, that are all coded up and everything. But me and Kelcie refuse to fix the entire site, if simple grammatical errors and oversights can't be implemented. (Why fix a car if someone can't screw in a lightbulb?) There's no use in overworking yourself.
But I am not gonna lose everything on Shin, just like I didn't want you to lose all your shit. Cuz it aint fair. And there are a million other people that are looking at this thread thinking "I got screwed over" and they need to be given their shit back too. But you can't help people that don't talk.
Plus I really would like a Kabuto character anyways, I miss medics. They're quiet and nice and stuff. |
| | | | Hiruzen
Age : 32
Posts : 1178
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Thu 25 Dec 2014, 11:41 pm | |
| I will summarize all that I have left to say: Make Stealth more fair by making it so that one can not move above C ranked speed while remaining under the effects of the stealth SC.
Speed has the possibility of breaking bones, Endurance can cause someone to die because they feel no pain and might go too far while people with strength can shatter their own bones when attacking. It's stands to reason that something like this would also get a drawback, just like pretty much every other SC has drawbacks these days. If people really want things to be made fair, this is one of the ways to actually get it done. I had something else that I wanted to talk about, but I will leave that for another thread as it is only loosely affiliated with this thread. |
| | | | Enzo
Age : 28
Posts : 1797
| | Subject: Re: Rito Nerf Sensory Pliz Fri 26 Dec 2014, 4:32 am | |
| Ninjutsu is OP. You can summon fireballs the size of buildings, turn a wide open field into a canyons, and cause enormous towers of water to crash down on an army. All without getting a single SC. Not one SC. You can do all of this without a single SC.
Medical Ninjutsu is OP. You can regrow arms, you can heal fractured (and even broken) bones in minutes, and you can heal wounds as you're being pummeled. You can do all of this without a single SC. Not one SC.
Fuuinjutsu is OP. You can immobilize someone with a single touch, you can do almost everything Ninjutsu can do, and you can transport objects through space and time. You can do all of this without a single SC. Not one SC.
Genjutsu is OP. You can hypnotize someone and leave them vulnerable for extensive periods of time, you can put them through excruciating, PTSD intense, pain, and you can knock them unconscious with a mere touch. All of this you can do without a single SC. Not one.
Puppetry is OP. You can control a weapon suspended in the air with multiple complex functions that can incinerate a person with the flick of a single switch, and you can use up to ten of these at a time for the cost of a single transformation jutsu per post. All without a single SC. Not one.
Do you see the pattern here? Any single specialty can be overpowered if used correctly. Any single specialty can be overpowered when used against someone without a way of avoiding it. Take Genjutsu for example. Genjutsu can EASILY, and i mean WITHOUT EVEN TRYING take down a Taijutsu or Weaponry user. They can fuck them up so bad without having to move an inch. But likewise, a Fuuin User or a Ninjutsu user can wipe the floor with a Gen user before they can even hypnotize them. Every specialty has its flaws, and every specialty has its bonuses. Some tactics are more powerful to others, and some are weaker to others. That's just how it works. The best you can do is try to cover your weaknesses, which is what Koga has basically been saying all along. You cannot blame the system because your character is unable to overcome an obstacle. Take my sand fucker Ayato; he is short, and reckless. That's how I made him, and I am completely aware that his fighting style is completely doomed against someone with Genjutsu. But in the future, I intend to fix that, through character development, through the acquisition of new jutsu, and through gaining new SCs to cover my defenses. The same way you'd take Keen Perception or Sensory to cover your ass from a Stealth user. There is no such thing as a perfect character (although admittedly Nin-Tai is probably the most powerful combination), and even the strongest character on paper can be overcome by a single weakness.
There are many different archetypes. There's the tank, which is what your character is like Vergil. There is the "DPS", which is what my character is like, or what Ruka's character is like; they can deal enormous amounts of damage but can be broken with a few hits (a glass cannon, if you will). There's the healer, which can't do as many impressive or complex feats as a DPS, and can't very well hold out on their own like a tank, but have the advantage of overcoming these weaknesses through their healing abilities. Despite all of these being MMO references, I'm pretty sure you could class every one of the characters on this site into one of these modems. And if not? Then they're probably a Jack of all Trades, much like Kakashi was.
An Assassin character is an archetype that focuses around killing the enemies in a single shot. However, once that shot misses, what purpose does their stealth SC serve then? After their initial plan is thwarted, that SC is about as useful as High IQ used to be. On paper it's convenient, but in practice it's fucking stupid. How can you sneak up on someone in the middle of combat. Even if your footsteps are quiet there are like 7 other senses you can use and a million different attacks to counter it. Stacking stealth and speed together is overpowered, but then so is stacking Ninjutsu mastery and chakra capacity. You used to only be able to take either a chakra boost, or an overall reduction to jutsu costs. Not both. But you don't see anyone complaining about how the Hokage can use 15 A-rank jutsu in a single battle and still have enough left over to escape if he needs to. Hell, in the Anime the third hokage could barely use like 5 A-ranks before he was winded; and he was regarded as the strongest shinobi ever. Admittedly, he was old and not in his prime, but that just shows you how, if you plan ahead right, any combination of SC's could be incredibly overpowered. Nerfing Stealth would also mean having to nerf Chakra capacity, or having to nerf blurred hand seals. Like you can't just nerf one thing and expect the problem to be fixed. If you implement the nerf you suggest Vergil, then you reduce the amount of creativity one can have. You reduce their ability to make a quick assassin. You actually eliminate the possibility altogether, because if an assassin can't sneak up on you and gut you before you notice, then he's not a very good assassin is he? There are a million and a half ways that any given character can be construed as OP. Your Hokage can summon a giant fucking wooden thing that would make my character shit himself before his intestines are flattened into a pancake. Would it be reasonable for me to demand that ALL Mokuton users be unable to grow trees taller than 5 meters? Of course not. And likewise, it would be unreasonable for you to say "You can't be sneaky if you can run faster than an 11 year old boy."
Everything on this site is Overpowered. But everyone has access to these overpowered things, and simply has to earn them or focus their character in a slightly different direction than intended to overcome them. As Koga said, you can't create a short character and whine about there being tall characters. Likewise, you can't create a character weak to Genjutsu, and then complain about Genjutsu being OP. Am I doing that? Fuck no. So what reason is there for you to create a character weak to fast characters, and then blame the fast characters for being too fast? Or make a character that can easily be snuck up on, and then blame the assassin for being too quiet? Why should Stealth suffer, while Ninjutsu Mastery continues to allow people to hurl enormous fireballs for the cost of a shadow clone? You don't see school teachers complaining that lawyers and doctors make more money than them. Unless you want to add an "SR" after "US". |
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