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Name: Suiton Master
Rank: A
Type: Chakra Based
Physical Requirements: Must have Suiton Prodigy
Training Requirements: A 1600 word training post is required to gain this special characteristic.
Description: The title given to those elite ninja who've become legendary for their power and skill over the water element. Being classified as a prodigy during their early years, the ninja has now mastered the water element and attains great power from their continuous training. The ninja's water techniques are now 40% more destructive by the increase in pressure in size. The user can now summon large volumes of water from molding their chakra, which can be used for their water techniques or other convenient uses. They can also scale across water in very high speeds and attack from the depth. Through such mastery they also gain the ability to access a sub-element from the water element known as 'Mist Release'. This allows them to create specialized jutsu under this sub-element.

I'm getting quite tired of topics taking this trend so before this topic devolves into (even more of) a deluded pool of misconceptions, I suppose it is time I make an appearance even though I was kind of hoping I would not have to do so. That being said, I would've made a response to Ruka long before the topic became subject to a number of other replies, but I've been more than a bit busy with real life issues as is the general flow for the holiday season.

As per usual, I'm going to go through the topic and respond in a post by post or subject by subject matter, whichever happens to be more apt for the issue of discussion at the present moment. I will do my best to keep it brief, but lets be honest that's probably not going to happen and it seems likely I will need to include several instances for an intermission or bathroom break if my response turns out like I imagine it will.

As the starter of the topic, it only seems logical that I start with

Ruka: As I said yesterday (or rather two days ago now given the time it will be by the time I finish my response) the overall consensus of your points are not wrong in their entirety. However, you are misrepresenting the problem and more so the solution to such an extent that to those with more understanding than you (which I say not in a way to insult your understanding or to imply a high level of ignorance) and a more rash sense of judgment are going to assume that you are wrong or respond to your points wrongly. With that being said, there is very little in your initial post that I believe requires a large amount of commentary or examination on my part, although I would very much like to discuss the issue of combat or rather how you believe ' US does things with combat' but not in this particular discussion or forum if only to clear up any misconceptions you may have or enlighten myself on any similar misconceptions I hold myself. Now with that being noted, I will address the few issues I find in your post as briefly as I am able.

A lot of the issues that I draw from your response (and seems to largely be the general issues with combat on US as a whole) is that everyone is not on the same page in regards to what they should be able to do and/or how they should react to things; the Genin Tournament highlights this especially well. If you remember I addressed the idea of making a guide to outline for combat in attempt to ease as many misconceptions that any member might have in regards to how the general sequence and flow of combat how should work and I was saddened when this topic got so few responses. In general, the largest amount of misunderstandings in regards to combat that I find specifically on US regard either: A. Not understanding how much or how little time you have in reference to your opponent. Or B. Not understanding that your opponent can take action whilst you are taking action. Now as I said, I will blame a large portion of this on just how shitty the combat system on US is written or rather how it's not written, given that the bulk of the rules or guidelines simply are "Don't God-mod".

Moving on to the subject of the SCs, this is actually said you are right in some regards, but I (and many others) simply do not believe that your proposed solution actually addresses the root of the problem nor fix it in such a way that we would not simply have to go back and re-balance at a later date. Now I'm going to say this, the Special Characteristics are a problem and not just the Physical-Based SCs either, almost every single one of them is problematic in one fashion or another. That being said, a bulk of the problem is that at some point in the past (be it with the release of the US 3-4-5-6-7-8.0 system or otherwise) it was decided [not by me mind you, this was long before even my initial tenure on staff] that the SCs were going to be used as balances for what X-shinobi was capable in comparison to Y-shinobi and it was decided quite strictly that no ability would be allowed to mimic SCs, especially the physical ones. Although the logic behind this is quite problematic, I can see why it was enforced in this fashion, if only to keep everything uniform. I want to say that this is why you see a lot of the same character builds on US, because there is no way to apply modifiers to your character without x-SC or y-SC.

The problem with this system became further exacerbated only when the SC revamp occurred [again prior to my most recent tenure on staff] and the Physical Special Characteristics were redone. I applaud the fact that trade-offs were added and even that the number of these characteristics were limited based on how a character's specialties were chosen. Really, A+ Concept. However, when the SCs were re-written to a point where their descriptors became entirely ridiculous such as

Flash Speed wrote:

On top of this large speed boost, those with this speed can essentially outrun cheetahs and even appear as a swift blur to unsuspecting bystanders who happen to notice the character.

it becomes problematic because members, be it new or otherwise act to the point where these descriptors are taken literally. If I were to call anyone out on this specifically it would actually be Faker when he initially joined because he and I got into quite an intense discussion about the reliability of the descriptors which resulted in me adding this

Special Characteristic Clarification wrote:

Although many of the Special Characteristics may have superfluous or dramatized phrasing in the description, it does not mean that such attributes should be attributed to those who posses the SCs in terms of Player Versus Player Role-play Combat, when they should be taken with a more conservative mindset. In the context of missions or social threads, the traits of these dramatically described SCs may be acted upon in a more liberal fashion, but only in the appropriate context. All users should keep in mind that the Special Characteristic system was chosen in lieu of a Stat System to dictate the differences in various areas of skill or ability between two characters, but despite the nature of their descriptions one should use them with a logical and realistic mindset.

to the guide until such a time that I had time to rework the SC system as a whole (a task I have been working on for quite some time but have suffered due to multiple real life hindrances to my progress, the largest being the fact that my previous computer decided to commit seppuku) if only to prevent people from thinking that the obviously ridiculous descriptions on some of the SCs were the honest way that they should be used in a role-play.

If only to employ some attempt at brevity, I'm only going to highlight the Speed SC as it seems to be the bigger issue in this topic as a whole.

Now as I said, the SCs are a terrible means of balance on any site for two primary reasons and a third smaller reason. Firstly, the cover too much of an area to allow for decently user created customs especially when mimicry is so harshly judged, thus for once I will actually agree in this area that uniqueness is limited or as Vergil likes to reiterate 'creativity is killed'. Secondly, because of this lack of variation, a number of character builds turn out almost exactly the same. And before someone comes and says, "But Trey, shouldn't the uniqueness of a character be judged by how they role-play and now how they are built in terms of 'stats'?" Why yes, imaginary voice in my head, they should, however it brings me to the third point I mentioned only a few sentences ago. Because people have so many misconceptions (a fault that lies not only in the staff and how the guides are written, but also the habit a lot of the older members have to not ask questions) in regards to how the SCs should function, either when used in a stand-alone fashion (speed by itself) or intersecting (speed + stealth) fashion, somewhere along the line it became assumed that if you did not have speed or evasiveness you were (pardon my use of expletive) fucked. Now whether you believe it or not, this is simply not true. There are more counters to speed presently than I can list on one hand with the most basic and reliable of them is in every single one of the basic (Genin, Chuunin, Jounin) Ninja Kits. All it takes to counter every physical SC is some clever thinking or a bit of logic in your tactics.

With that being covered in my habitually lengthy manner, Ruka I will specifically address your example before moving on to some other posts in this thread. Your example sites Faker's Dragon's Rage technique which if I am not mistaken is based on one of the "Leaf x" based kicks which have virtually no start up time providing you are in the proper stance, only taken to an S - rank level of potential (Yosh if I'm wrong here then please correct me). The kick itself is immensely strong, but not wrongly so as it is design to be the utmost level of Taijutsu befitting its S - Rank level. However, your example is wrong in the usage of speed. No character on this site, regardless of level or selection of Special Characteristics can reach their peak speed without generally having an expansive amount of space an time to build up to said speed. Thus John should have a decent enough time to either a perform a simple technique and spew a fireball at Peter or John could simply drop some Makibishi in front of him and take a few steps back only to laugh as Peter in a non-consenting fashion, embeds metal spikes into his feet given that he is incapable of stopping with enough time or altering his direction.

The only common way that I see for it to be possible to outright blitz someone with sheer speed in the fashion you depict is to either; A. fight an opponent who is lacks the common sense to take the proper action. Or B. fight with an ally and attack whilst your opponent is distracted.

Now, I'm going to apologize for not taking the time to specifically go over your suggestions, but given how the thread has multiplied, I would like to address some other issues before I reach the length of a (small) novella in my response.

Chris: For the most part you are right. Taijutsu and Weaponry need a huge overhaul however, so does everything else. I don't think that base speed should be established beyond anything other than the speed SCs itself (not to support the strict SC-only limitations I was only just complaining about) in that if you do not have a speed based SC or some form of speed modifier, you should move at an equally slow pace as someone else without the said modifier regardless of rank.

Although we have discussed a large portion of this on skype or whilst working on various possible solutions for the site (of which my slow ass has delayed the implementation of in no small amount), I'll move on, if only for brief comment, to

Faker:I'm not entirely sure making non-chakra based Tai or Weaponry techniques 'free' is the right way to go about things although I do see your logic behind this suggestion. However, at some point we do need to factor in some measure of fatigue if only for balance reasons. It was my understanding when this chakra system was initially established that Taijutsu and Weaponry techniques were designed to have a lesser cost to compensate for their obvious failings, however at some point this standard was not upheld and you end up in the giant cluster-fuck that we have now.

I'm going to breeze over most of this post, because for the most part you explain yourself clearly without a hefty amount of misconceptions and because I can always berate you on skype in some fashion if you are being illogical, but I would like to address the Hand Seals SC Tree, specifically. This whole tree is fucked up in any logical fashion and I have in my own misguided good intentions, made it worse. In quick summary, One - Handed Seals should be something limited to Adv Element Clans specifically given the canon basis on hand seals. Blurred Hand Movement should be C - Ranked, but it is largely a terrible means of establishing anything because of no real dictation on hand seals for techniques. No Seals, is a terrible construct with almost no strong Canon Basis that isn't either extremely situational or the result of Kishi being a lazy writer and artist. The functionality of No-Seals needs to be heavily reworked and limited in almost every possible fashion. Alright I said it, for the first time ever I was wrong. [inb4 this gets quoted to hell.]

Ruka:I generally sum it up in my initial response, if there is any lack of clarity please let me know.

Faker:

Faker wrote:

Chris has a huge point, taijutsu and weaponry need work, so people can get in and do their stuff. You shouldn't get free stats per rank, but theres no rules or say so on this. It's implied that a C Rank genin with speed is about as fast as a Chuunin without it, which is kinda dumb. If you don't take speed, you shoudln't have it no matter what.

And just because "ninja" and ninjutsu are popular because it's in the name doesn't mean Lee types or Hyuuga types should suffer. But on this site they do. If Ninjutsu can have all the fun SC's and the variety, why can't Lee types get access to enhance their bodies? They can't. All those techniques are banned.


Generally I agree as you well know, but as I noted in my initial response to Ruka, a large reason as to why they are so hindered stems from the fashion that the SC system took on the site.

The next few posts pass without, much need for immediate comment as I will be addressing the general attitude of certain people or posts later, but

Faker wrote:

It's not just one or two things that are overpowered on this site, a lot of issues exist. But as per your description of speed being some blink or flash, that is wrong by per definition of the SC itself. It's not a blink, nor is anyone roleplaying it like it is one.

If you think anyone is using the Speed SC in that manner, PM Alex or Trey.

So much this. That goes for any combat situation, if you feel like your opponent is acting beyond the way the should please contact preferably Alex or myself, if the tournament does not exemplify this, then I don't really know what else I can tell you.

Vergil: Normally I'd humor your flawed logic but it's pushing 4am. It does not take anything beyond a bit of common sense to counter an assassin. Every single Physical SC has some fashion of drawback. Sensory has a draw back. Stealth has heavy drawbacks, if you use simple logic. Broad Daylight and moving at a high speed to name the two most obvious. Note however that there is no real drawback on the Nin-based SCs? Hand Seals, Chakra and X-Mastery? Any character can stack them and profit.

If you think that a Stealth + Speed based assassin can get away with whatever they want than I doubt your understanding of the way things actually work entirely. Assassins are designed to profit off of shortcomings of your opponent, however they have plenty of shortcomings themselves. See my initial response to Ruka in which I illuminate more on this subject.

Casually skipping over Yusuke because he says nothing that bears a hefty comment at this time. He's right in saying that counter play or counter planning should be a thing. It is in any combat situation.

Back to Vergil: For the most part, see my response to Ruka given that problems with the SCs, but also the lack of logic that a lot of people seem to use.



Vergil wrote:

As someone who used Flash Speed, I can honestly say that moving like the Flash is not really fair while having something like Stealth on top of it is just plain bullshit.

If you used it like that then it is you who are in the wrong.



Vergil wrote:

Oh, you mean like the character that I had for over two years that get torn apart? Don't come up to me with this kind of thing and expect sympathy, you still have your character in it's bloody prime, so those sob stories honestly do not affect me.


I am telling you right now that if you bring this up again, I am going to ban you from the CB and posting on any form of discussion based forum on the site. Yes it happened, yes it sucks, yes you initially had my sympathy, but your inability to cope with the situation by either compromise or some other fashion is not anyone's problem nor has any relevance to the site anymore. Your attitude (and not to excuse the attitude of others in this thread that I will address in a few) will not be tolerated come the New Year regardless of sway or tenure on the site. I will respect debate on concepts or in small amounts on moderation but the repeated rage and complaining when things do not go the exact way you want will not be tolerated.

The rest are pretty arbitrary to comment as I've already addressed a bulk of the comments. Again Yusuke's general understanding is for the most part spot on, as are Enzo's and Kiseki's points.

Now one final closing note about the general drama and attitude of these threads. A. I understand these things do get heated, I understand the necessity for harshly toned wording to make a point. However, if you cannot discuss an issue without it devolving into these cesspools of petty bullshit then I will begin to slowly revoke FA posting permissions every time I see it. There is so much potential to fix the issues on this site that is lost in stupid ass drama that exhausts everyone involved and I'm pretty much done tolerating this. And just so we're clear, this includes the bulk of staff as well, not simply the general members.

Now Ruka, if you feel up to discussing anything with me on Skype tomorrow [specifically the 26th for me] I would greatly prefer if you did so, but I will not force it on you and I apologize for the escalation of this thread. That generally goes for anyone involved or on the site period, I'm always open to talk on Skype, even if I'm not actively at my keyboard, send me a message or PM and I will respond when I can.

Hiruzen wrote:

Ruka's not responding anymore and I am done talking to you people, so you can go ahead and solve it for all I care.

Solved as per user request, if anyone feels that anything was not appropriately addressed, please contact me either by PM or on Skype as I am open for discussion.