Is ranking up unreasonable?

Age : 33 Posts : 308

So as I was looking into how I could advance my B-rank character to A-rank, I began to make many broad considerations that I thought were worth sharing.

The over all conclusion? It may just be too difficult to 'rank up' so to speak.

What motivates people to be active is the opportunity to advance, to develop a character, and not just story wise. I hear often people making character with vision of them being something stronger later down the line, and while I agree that it is a process that does require 'work' and 'effort' I am curious if perhaps this process sets a bar too high to reasonably be reached? Do people lose motivation to RP and move on to other things before they are able to be satisfied with success?

Not to mention the fact that the 'evaluation' process is a lengthy one. I understand that the mods have to personally read topics that they have no interest in, but if this process is so taxing on everyone, then why not simplify it?

To make my point more clear, has anyone on the site to date progressed in rank without it being giving the rank?

Members and Staff alike need some sense of reward in order to reinforce their activity. I know everyone doesn't want to be stuck as a 13 year old forever!

Age : 36 Posts : 1004

I lost motivation partially due to this...I agree with Flash

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

I also agree with Flash. I think we should aim for more deaths, less time Ranking up. Also, maybe if you reach high ranks, upon death, you retain a higher rank than Genin. So that everyone is not such a pussy when it comes to fighting others. Hell, Fox and I could have had both of our characters killed. Mine more than hers, but ya know xD It was fun!

The current system requires you to Roleplay consistently for ages. I think it took Kana like a few months to get from Genin to Chuunin, if not a year! That's far too much.

Age : 34 Posts : 591

Speaking of burnt out, I'm definitely burnt. Part of it is realizing how much it requires to move forward. Example? I have 4500 worth of words to train for a handful of jutsu and SC's, so I'm struggling to pull my head out of the sand and post period.... obviously something is wrong, but who can say what is hard to guess at.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

It takes like 8-9 RP topics and 2-3 missions to go up a rank, regardless of what rank you are. I really don't find this taxing at all. People shouldn't be ranking up every month; that would defeat the purpose of having high ranks. In retrospect, it may take a minimum of maybe 2 months to gain enough RP to rank up; and then the missions can all be solo'd. It's already easy to rank up. Making it easier would just spawn tons of amateur Jounin. Your character was approved like 20 days ago. Did you really expect to be A-rank by now?

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

You can't claim it an easy process, if the only true person to have ever ranked up is Kana. No one else. Don't speak out of theory, but out of experience - and that tells us, that only one person had the will to rank up. Something must have made the countless others unwilling. What?

Unfortunately, everyone else are simply privileged members, who have by some form of Black Magic, acquired a higher rank than everyone else.

8/9 Topics is quite a task seeing as it takes a number of days, if not weeks, to finish one. Add inactivity of other people, which sometimes renders topics useless in terms of evaluations, and you end up with quite the time. Now yes, 8-9 topics for a Genin to become Experienced, but really, people want to be Chuunin and Jounin = 16 and 24 topics, respectively. Add an increasingly higher number of Missions, and the chance that your character will die along the way or that you will have to go on a break for some or other reason, and you have at least a year.

Age : 34 Posts : 591

+1 to Chris

No, I shouldn't be Jounin yet but I should feel further along than I am. Otherwise, I have no incentive to bother.

Age : 31 Posts : 299

This is a game, if you don't like to read, write, and role-play then you shouldn't be attempting to rank up at all because you shouldn't be on the site, to start. This game is a process and just like any other video game you have to put in hours out of your day in order to improve at this game, or improve your character/jutsu whatever.

My suggestion to you, find more friends to RP with, start a personal campaign for your character, a personal plot, and anything else your character can possibly due in the world while they are in it. What kind of bullshit do you do in your free-time IRL? You have the freedom to do whatever kind of bullshit in this "RP world" make use of it instead of complaining about the amount of time you're being asked to put into it. Its a game, this is how its played. It takes months to get high level on an MMO or at least a couple weeks for a console game. Why should this be different?

Your goal should be make 1 post a day IRP. I guarantee you if you're making topics/posts everyday, your efforts will be rewarded.

Unfortunately the idea chris has with less rank/more death means you will need more mods, because more death = more character's to check, and more characters to build which leads you back to the same crap you were just trying to avoid. As far as only having 1 character ranked up, how long have we even been open? I joined this site maybe 3 weeks ago, got approved within 2 weeks (And that time has decreased with additional mods being brought up) and have had probably a week to RP. as far as i know there were maybe 10 members here before I showed up and the rest have come in after/during the time i've been here. So i dont really think its time to complain about these sorts of things yet. When were 8-9 months down the line, and we have 1 character ranked up, thats when you can say hey, what the hell. But 1 month = 1 rank up? Seems legit to me.

Age : 31 Posts : 8965

Kana isn't the only person that has ranked up.

It takes a long time to rank up because there is hardly anybody willing to commit to getting those topics complete in such a short time, instead they drag out the process and if people do just 'quit' trying to rank up over it than that's fantastic because we want responsible, dedicated and active members to attain higher ranks on this site.

For your idea about keeping the same rank Chris, I think it will take away the aspect of strategic fighting. You can just pull out all the big stops and be killed taking out your opponent at the same time and you get to make that new character you wanted at the same rank. Jounin flees the village and is killed, have the same rank. It's like letting somebody fail to escape the village and then letting their next character be Nukenin. It is a contradiction of how this sites supposed to function and will hardly have many positive outcomes over negative ones.

I agree that roleplaying here for some time, being killed and having to start again would suck so hard, Kija did it and he's still not over his poorly slain Uchiha darling. But he's accepted it because this 'is' a game and that's how games work.

Age : 35 Posts : 1113

Chris wrote:: Unfortunately, everyone else are simply privileged members, who have by some form of Black Magic, acquired a higher rank than everyone else.

Chris wrote:: I think we should aim for more deaths

Adam wrote:: I agree that roleplaying here for some time, being killed and having to start again would suck so hard, Kija did it and he's still not over his poorly slain Uchiha darling. But he's accepted it because this 'is' a game and that's how games work.

What we actually need to do is make it less of a mean thing to kill someone else's character. I for one, despite wielding a nukenin character, do not like the idea of demolishing someone's hard work*. It takes time and effort to create a character, and often people do not want to see them killed off. And I don't like the idea of being the big meanie who does it. Maybe I don't speak for everyone, but I'll bet I'm not alone.

As I understand it, most deaths on this site are planned by the participants. This isn't a good reflection of the reality of shinobi, but clearly is a difficult thing to avoid. It's not that we need more deaths - it's that we need killing to be okay. If your character is killed unexpectedly, perhaps there could be a silver lining?

* = this doesn't mean that I dislike being a baddie. It is, actually, rather fun.

Age : 33 Posts : 308

Saying that "this is how the game works" is a poor premise when the argument attempts to change "how the game works". I didnt post this question of a discussion form to complain personally, but rather for the well being of the site. If you want people to come and stay and roleplay then they need to feel like they have a goal they are working towards.

Comparing this to an MMO-RPG is a weak premise when the two share little in common. Yes, we want quality and 'dedicated' members, but at the same time, this isn't a job. For all of us this is a hobby. If you insist that we go elsewhere if we are unwilling to 'work hard' to obtain levels, then all that would be left are the few people gifted positions and the staff that is hardly motivated as it is.

So the real question is... WHY do people Roleplay?

To create a story in a fan based world of a series we all enjoy. We should be creating an environment where it's fun and easy for people to live out the adventures of a shinobi as opposed to forcing them to work hard because thats the way you designed the game. People want to be the Kakashi's, the Killer Bees, the Might Guys etc., not play Genin filler to GET to that point. At the end of the day, it loses motivation and substance.

And if you'd really argue that "This isn't about the members enjoying their time, it's about the people adhering to the system of the game we've created." Then perhaps my time is better spent elsewhere.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

First of all, Kana is the only member as far as I know, that has went legally from Genin to Chuunin. No one else has done that.

Secondly, Kana has been here for as long as I = 9/10 Months. It took him roughly 8 to Rank up to Chuunin. Therefore, in the last 8 months, there has only been one 'true' legit rank up. That's worrying.

Thirdly, you only posted twice, Abilities, so you can't really talk about hard work and dedication. As Flash just said, this is supposed to be fun. MMORPG are generally tedious and just bad. We can't compare creative writing to smashing a number button, and attacking the same monster 50 times just to level up once D:

Fourthly, I said that if you have a high ranking Character, you should retain a slightly higher rank than Genin when you die, not the same rank. What I meant in practical terms was, if I have a Jounin, when I die, I should be able to make a Chuunin. That way, I don't feel like I wasted a Year of my life - just 6 months Razz

And lastly, I agree with Fox. Our fight, as an example, was pre-planned though there were situations and I'm sure both she and I had moments, where we could have pushed for the others' death. Apart from our fight, I haven't seen anyone else fight 'seriously' with another character for a long time. Hence, we could say that for the last 8 or so months, we only had ONE REAL FIGHT. For a Naruto forum, which is centered around combat, that's really worrying.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Quote :: To create a story in a fan based world of a series we all enjoy. We should be creating an environment where it's fun and easy for people to live out the adventures of a shinobi as opposed to forcing them to work hard because thats the way you designed the game. People want to be the Kakashi's, the Killer Bees, the Might Guys etc., not play Genin filler to GET to that point. At the end of the day, it loses motivation and substance.

If everyone was able to create their own Kakashis and Jiraiyas, people would get bored VERY easily. The whole point of RP is to strive for a key destination. In their case, it would be to turn into one of their idols. If we gave everyone their best abilities at the beginning, there would be nothing to do after the first few weeks. Have you ever played a video game? There's a reason they don't start off as level 50 paladins who can KO enemies in 2 hits. If they did, people would very quickly get bored of the game, and drop it for something more interesting and fun. What makes things like RP fun, is the adventure it takes to achieve your wanted goal. Hard work is the reason things feel nice once their achieved. There's a nice little saying that goes 'You can't enjoy a sunny day without some rainy days'. If people don't achieve their greatness, it will quickly be taken for granted, and then the integrity of the concept of RP is ruined. Giving people a rank up every month is hardly reasonable. Work hard, achieve your dream, then relax. That's how life is; that's how video games are, that's how virtually everything is. Why should RP suddenly follow ethics that differ from something that has worked for thousands of years?

Quote :: First of all, Kana is the only member as far as I know, that has went legally from Genin to Chuunin. No one else has done that.

Secondly, Kana has been here for as long as I = 9/10 Months. It took him roughly 8 to Rank up to Chuunin. Therefore, in the last 8 months, there has only been one 'true' legit rank up. That's worrying.

Dunno' if you've noticed or not, but about 95% of the current population of the site is made up of new characters, that have, in the past 3-4 months, been approved. Prior to these 3 months, there were VERY few characters, and even fewer that were active. Your argument is null, because not everyone has been on this site, RPing for 8 months. Kana was an active person; I'd like for you to name one genin on this site that has been around for countless months, ACTIVELY, and still doesn't have at least one rank boost. Having large 3 month vacations doesn't qualify as being active.

Quote :: Thirdly, you only posted twice, Abilities, so you can't really talk about hard work and dedication.

People have RP'd on other sites.. scratch

A large majority of us came from another site, so I'm sure Abilities, like the rest of us, would very well know what hard work is. Kind of a quick judgement, don't you think?

Quote :: Fourthly, I said that if you have a high ranking Character, you should retain a slightly higher rank than Genin when you die, not the same rank. What I meant in practical terms was, if I have a Jounin, when I die, I should be able to make a Chuunin. That way, I don't feel like I wasted a Year of my life - just 6 months

Right, so you gain your Jounin without legitimate cause, then when you die, you can start off with another advanced rank? That seems perfectly fair.. You got your rank because you submitted a roleplay sample to an administrator, and they said "sure". You don't deserve to have a Chuunin once you die, because you didn't even actively RP to reach your Jounin rank. You got it as a gift. On the other hand, if one were to earn their rank via RP means, then sure. I'm for giving them a slightly higher rank.

Quote :: And lastly, I agree with Fox. Our fight, as an example, was pre-planned though there were situations and I'm sure both she and I had moments, where we could have pushed for the others' death. Apart from our fight, I haven't seen anyone else fight 'seriously' with another character for a long time. Hence, we could say that for the last 8 or so months, we only had ONE REAL FIGHT. For a Naruto forum, which is centered around combat, that's really worrying.

Since when was killing tabooed on this site..? Nobody is saying "Don't go killing each other." It's you members who are the ones reluctant to put the lives of your own characters at risk. This is hardly a problem for the site. You're the ones who don't want to hold Death Matches. How is that the Staff's problem? scratch

Age : 31 Posts : 299

WTFlash wrote:: Saying that "this is how the game works" is a poor premise when the argument attempts to change "how the game works". I didnt post this question of a discussion form to complain personally, but rather for the well being of the site. If you want people to come and stay and roleplay then they need to feel like they have a goal they are working towards.

Comparing this to an MMO-RPG is a weak premise when the two share little in common. Yes, we want quality and 'dedicated' members, but at the same time, this isn't a job. For all of us this is a hobby. If you insist that we go elsewhere if we are unwilling to 'work hard' to obtain levels, then all that would be left are the few people gifted positions and the staff that is hardly motivated as it is.

So the real question is... WHY do people Roleplay?

To create a story in a fan based world of a series we all enjoy. We should be creating an environment where it's fun and easy for people to live out the adventures of a shinobi as opposed to forcing them to work hard because thats the way you designed the game. People want to be the Kakashi's, the Killer Bees, the Might Guys etc., not play Genin filler to GET to that point. At the end of the day, it loses motivation and substance.

And if you'd really argue that "This isn't about the members enjoying their time, it's about the people adhering to the system of the game we've created." Then perhaps my time is better spent elsewhere.

Your attempt to change how the game works seems to benefit lazier and less active players then players who spent a lot of time and put work into their character.

and specifically this "To create a story in a fan based world of a series we all enjoy. We should be creating an environment where it's fun and easy for people to live out the adventures of a shinobi as opposed to forcing them to work hard because thats the way you designed the game. People want to be the Kakashi's, the Killer Bees, the Might Guys etc., not play Genin filler to GET to that point. At the end of the day, it loses motivation and substance."

playing genin is not filler, unless you make it filler.

As for you chris, I've been Rping a long, long time.. so to say i dont know hard work.. lol, thats to say something rude =P

Age : 35 Posts : 1113

Enzo wrote:: Since when was killing tabooed on this site..? Nobody is saying "Don't go killing each other." It's you members who are the ones reluctant to put the lives of your own characters at risk. This is hardly a problem for the site. You're the ones who don't want to hold Death Matches. How is that the Staff's problem?

All members (inc. staff) contribute to this problem by not wanting to destroy another's work and as a collective we make it a site problem. Surely site problems are relevant to the staff who have the power to help remedy them? There is absolutely no obligation to do anything about it, we're merely pointing out something you might like to consider. I recognize this would be more work on an already taxed group.

Age : 29 Posts : 3145

Sorry Abilities, I was specifically referring to your 'current' stay on US, which indeed has been very short.

Age : 33 Posts : 308

Alrighty! Discussion took place, proportion exchanged opinions and no one hates anyone else because of it. I call that a success.

Age : 49 Posts : 1036

Enzo wrote:: It takes like 8-9 RP topics and 2-3 missions to go up a rank, regardless of what rank you are. I really don't find this taxing at all. People shouldn't be ranking up every month; that would defeat the purpose of having high ranks. In retrospect, it may take a minimum of maybe 2 months to gain enough RP to rank up; and then the missions can all be solo'd. It's already easy to rank up. Making it easier would just spawn tons of amateur Jounin. Your character was approved like 20 days ago. Did you really expect to be A-rank by now?

The problem with that "8-9 RP topics and 2-3 missions" Enzo is that it assumes a few things that don't fit the reality of the site.

First, that someone can't always find people to RP with; I'm being blunt when I say that this site has a noticeable "clique" issue. That might be slowly changing with the influx of new people but it is still going to take time. Time that people are going to get frustrated and end up leaving because they're making zero forward progress and it's not due to lack of effort. Then there is the ever-present problem of another participant taking an announced leave due to burn out, change in schedule, etc in a topic, holding things up as the other players wait for a response or even causing it to never finish. I know other sites, in fact I would say the majority, have a rule that states you have so many days to respond or ask for an extension after which your character can be written out and/ or killed by other thread participants. All to prevent a single person to stalling an entire thread.

Second, those topic and mission numbers assume getting good ratings each time. A problem here since the staff have VERY different opinions on what qualifies as "good writing". Nor have they always been able to keep things at a "professional" level when it comes to seeing the work and not the player, both in awarding undeserved points and in withholding points from others for spurious reasons. It would be more reasonable to double those numbers to account for the "luck of the draw" when it comes to which moderator evaluates something and what sort of mood they are in at the time. To me, those can become pretty hefty obstacles for someone, especially if they get "out of sync" with the other members, where they need one thing (ranking points say) and the majority are looking for the other. Certainly big enough to cause someone to get frustrated.

Quite honestly Enzo, as an officer in a raiding guild I've dealt with a number of people who did the same sort of "race to the end" that you're describing, and it wasn't pretty. All it takes is for that person to hit a snag (ex. topic stalls, moderator has a bad day and takes it out by nit-picking their thread, etc) and they start to get frustrated because they aren't moving forward despite putting out more effort. If that goes on long enough (and I'm talking real time, not posts) they can get upset and say things that create problems. In MMOs that sort of situation is indicative of an over-reliance on time-sinks (aka "grinds"), and ends up causing the game to all but die out as the number of players burning out exceeds the number coming in. Here it would probably be indicative of a system based on the assumption of a large number of contributing players, not on the current situation where they are maybe two dozen truly active posters who are split up by village affiliation, rank, and the development of cliques.

Personally I do think we have a problem with ranking up. Not so much in time as in how many unneeded hoops are put in place just to drag the journey out. I can understand wanting to limit high ranks, though I think it is rather misplaced given that we allow "open PvP" and are much more relaxed in allowing people to start at a much higher rank now than when I started. What I find annoying is that the process of reaching that rank is dictated by a set of numbers (ranking points & mission points) instead of by the players preference (social-RPing or mission-RPing). Given that, and that I don't like to not offer a solution:

1) Remov Ranking points from the requirement for "ranking up." From an "in character" perspective it makes very little sense that someone's ability to socialize would determine their fitness for a higher ranking on the battlefield. From a pure mechanics perspective, there isn't any real difference between what goes into a RP-topic and a mission-topic; both typically involve interacting with other players, both require acceptable writing ability, both . The only difference is that "Missions" have to be approved by staff and RP-topics don't. Given that extra set of requirements, I have to ask why something like "Ranking points" even existed, much less was made THE major requirement towards advancing a character. The only thing I can come up with was it was a (rather poorly implemented) attempt to force players to interact outside of combat by saying "do this and you get rewarded, don't and you stay put."

2) Allow Ranking points to be converted into Mission points. Keeping in mind #1, instead of requiring both ranking points and mission points, create a single "lump sum" value needed to move up. Then let characters convert "excess" points in one category to the other. This way how someone advances their character is up to them. If they like social/ spar/ whatever stuf then they can do that, or if they would rather take to the battlefield they follow that route. Even if they like both, they can swing from one to the other as they feel and avoid becoming burned out.

Oh and can we can the "hard work" and "effort" bullcrap? It was old in Everquest when people used that to justify why equipment over a certain grade required months of sucking up to a raiding guild. It has even less meaning here when you consider that a player who tries to get 3 or 4 others involved for a long-running thread gets less points than someone who "spams" short topics and solo-missions. Even though it takes more "effort" to do the former.

Age : 34 Posts : 591

Alright, now as a current Burnout, let me give some insight.

For a majority of April (The the tip of may) my team was the most active team on the site. We hauled ass, did missions, trained, furthered character development (Or tried) and basically was like... the ideal team. We posted once a day, we did missions, we basically kicked ass.

May rolled around. None of my team were put up for possible "Of the Month" status. We weren't even thanked for our hard work. We watched as other topics, other members, and other characters got all the notice despite their INACTIVITY.

I saw Jounin led teams BEGGING for their team leader to post. They didn't.
I saw people come, AND GO as they realized what was ahead of them in terms of hard work.

We get no second characters, ranking up is nigh impossible, high ranks are given to inactive members, teams go stagnant, players lose their drive to move forward when things just take a dump on them. It's kinda easy to see why this place gets huge bursts of activity (How many people joined in February/April?) followed by giant downward spirals (How many people are actively posting?).

I mean seriously.... I can't even find my muse to finish up writing a topic for Flash so I can take a month break and get some rest. I'm tired of working my butt off and getting nothing for it. At least when I come home exhausted from my dayjob I have a paycheck to look forward to. What do I have to look forward to here? Jack Fraggin Diddly. I can't use a variety of characters to keep my interest, moving forward in rank is a task best set for those who simply don't have anything else to do with their lives, and any time I ask for something I get shot down because I'm an asshole and people don't like me. But then I show my value and hard work and still get nothing.

Seriously... what the hell?

Age : 33 Posts : 308

I'm alittle sad that people are speaking out and being ignored. This is not a good way for a site to interact with it's members.

Age : 31 Posts : 2547

Actually, NuclearTreerat's post is being discussed right now. I haven't read over Wani's yet though.

Age : 31 Posts : 299

There aren't enough members coming in monthly/weekly to make rank-ups faster, or else we'll have tons of chuunin and jounin with no genin.

Age : 33 Posts : 428

Just stop giving higher ranks to people without them first going through ranks and yeah, ranking up seems like something that never happens.

But its like that on almost every site, only a few have it differently.

I, myself, kinda got used to it.

Quote :: There aren't enough members coming in monthly/weekly to make rank-ups faster, or else we'll have tons of chuunin and jounin with no genin.

I think, if Ranking up was made easier, it would attract more members.

People mostly leave because they give up on trying to gain their desired rank after months of activity.

Posts : 18

Hi, just as a word from someone who's new to Naruto sites...

I enjoy writing. The first time I read what it took to rank up I thought, "How is that enough time to develop a freshly accepted Genin into the dependable Chuunin?"

Naruto is a series about semi-skilled children growing into capable young adults and facing the challenges of over-whelming powers. If they were all Jounin, it would be another boring show about killing enemies.

While shortening the requirements for ranking may cause more people to come to the site... is that alone a good thing? I would not think so, because I have watched (repeatedly) people who get to immediately play their mucho-powered characters get bored after two or three months max. Their character has no challenges (that they are willing to risk).

I seriously doubt that decreasing the requirements would better the site. Attracting a bunch of people not willing to put in some thought and work into their character's development, would solve none of these things. This of course is not just Naruto-RPG sites, but all RPGs. if you get to start as a badass their is no where to go... that is BORING.

If someone stops posting, skip them, if you have started (or are leading) the topic and you need to move things along, just post again, back-to-back if necessary. That what I do.

Age : 29 Posts : 1797

Banshi wrote:: Hi, just as a word from someone who's new to Naruto sites...

I enjoy writing. The first time I read what it took to rank up I thought, "How is that enough time to develop a freshly accepted Genin into the dependable Chuunin?"

Naruto is a series about semi-skilled children growing into capable young adults and facing the challenges of over-whelming powers. If they were all Jounin, it would be another boring show about killing enemies.

While shortening the requirements for ranking may cause more people to come to the site... is that alone a good thing? I would not think so, because I have watched (repeatedly) people who get to immediately play their mucho-powered characters get bored after two or three months max. Their character has no challenges (that they are willing to risk).

I seriously doubt that decreasing the requirements would better the site. Attracting a bunch of people not willing to put in some thought and work into their character's development, would solve none of these things. This of course is not just Naruto-RPG sites, but all RPGs. if you get to start as a badass their is no where to go... that is BORING.

If someone stops posting, skip them, if you have started (or are leading) the topic and you need to move things along, just post again, back-to-back if necessary. That what I do.

Newbie basically said everything I said, in more simple terms.